CC Career Progression into QF Short Haul - News?
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Ditzyboy............. I guess we can add that to the list of where the company clearly breeches the EBA in regards to the employment of casuals over full-time.
How so ? I didn't think the eba could control the employment of casuals or full time. There has been a lot said on this site in previous threads about qf's right to employ as many mam casuals or overseas based crew as they like. And with the very little i know about the law, i'm pretty sure you can't stop it, please correct me if i'm wrong.
And who do you agree with about this situation stinking ? From what i read and hear, most are extremely happy about the outcome of 1 for 1 ? I assume your on the list and that potentially means a transfer for you but at the very least movement up the list.
Also a polite reality check..... at least you've progressed and you're in short haul, yes its perth but you knew that when you accepted the job. If you really didn't want to go there you should have said so. Spare a thought for those you left behind who are still waiting to get the hell out of their airline and get to where you are today. It might not be all that you want, but its a damn site better that where you've been, isn't it ?
How so ? I didn't think the eba could control the employment of casuals or full time. There has been a lot said on this site in previous threads about qf's right to employ as many mam casuals or overseas based crew as they like. And with the very little i know about the law, i'm pretty sure you can't stop it, please correct me if i'm wrong.
And who do you agree with about this situation stinking ? From what i read and hear, most are extremely happy about the outcome of 1 for 1 ? I assume your on the list and that potentially means a transfer for you but at the very least movement up the list.
Also a polite reality check..... at least you've progressed and you're in short haul, yes its perth but you knew that when you accepted the job. If you really didn't want to go there you should have said so. Spare a thought for those you left behind who are still waiting to get the hell out of their airline and get to where you are today. It might not be all that you want, but its a damn site better that where you've been, isn't it ?
Last edited by regionalguy; 30th Jun 2007 at 00:52.
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It is a pity that under the current IR laws the EBA's are as useful and effective as an ash tray on a motor bike.
The company can do as it wants and an example of this is the cap on overseas crew for L/H.The company are effectively thumbing it's nose at previous agreements with complete indifference and impunity.
The other problem is that every group has their own agenda.This includes both unions,the company,MAM,Long Haul CC,Short haul CC,ex AO CC,etc....
The tech crew are having their problems as well with other tech crew groups and the company.
This really is the 'ME' generation.
We can only hope that little Johnny is voted out and his mates in big business are not as well connected or effective.
The company can do as it wants and an example of this is the cap on overseas crew for L/H.The company are effectively thumbing it's nose at previous agreements with complete indifference and impunity.
The other problem is that every group has their own agenda.This includes both unions,the company,MAM,Long Haul CC,Short haul CC,ex AO CC,etc....
The tech crew are having their problems as well with other tech crew groups and the company.
This really is the 'ME' generation.
We can only hope that little Johnny is voted out and his mates in big business are not as well connected or effective.
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RegionalGuy -
Hey Mate... Just like to let you know that I am probably one of 3-4 transferees who enjoy Perth flying and are not the least bit concerned about the timing of transfers. I commute from Sydney but get 5 IPDs (5 more than if I was based in Sydney) and I write my own roster (again, that would NEVER happen in Sydney). So I ask that you spare me the diatribe about dealing with Perth as I am loving my situation at the moment as I make it work for me (just as I did at Jetstar). I would consider a move back over there if my partner could but that isn't an option. I plan to port swap back to Perth once my transfer comes up anyway - it suits my lifestyle so much more.
I politely ask you to get off your moral high-horse and find out about a situation before mouthing off about it...
Who agrees with me? Educated people who have read and understood the EBA in relation to the placement of initial flight attendants when base transfers are pending (clause 73.6.2). While I am thankful that the FAAA made representations to the company and secured the 1:1 I am also annoyed that the company has breeched the EBA and the FAAA is content to let that happen and leave it at 1:1. What is the point of an EBA if it is only applied 'half-way' in favour of the company?
Knowledge is power, Mate. Read the EBA (clause 19[i]) and get back to me.
Please do not mistake my post as bitterness toward the FAAA! I have always supported them as my association and always will. However I believe that greater industrial power should be exercised by the FAAA (in my opinion). I am frustrated at the company's blatent and on-going disregard toward the EBA in a number of areas.
As previously mentioned I am one of few people on the transfer list ex-Perth who is happy. I am annoyed that key clauses in the EBA that REALLY matter to many people (who are unhappy in Perth, for example) are not being enforced.
Why would I care about the transfers if it doesn't really affect me all that much? Becuase I can see how stressful the current arrangements are for some and how unhappy some people seem. Call me old-fashioned but I am thinking of others over myself when voicing these concerns. The EBA should be followed and it hasn't been. Why shouldn't I want what is right for everyone, even if it isn't really important to myself?
Also a polite reality check..... at least you've progressed and you're in short haul, yes its perth but you knew that when you accepted the job. If you really didn't want to go there you should have said so. Spare a thought for those you left behind who are still waiting to get the hell out of their airline and get to where you are today. It might not be all that you want, but its a damn site better that where you've been, isn't it ?
I politely ask you to get off your moral high-horse and find out about a situation before mouthing off about it...
And who do you agree with about this situation stinking ? From what i read and hear, most are extremely happy about the outcome of 1 for 1 ?
I didn't think the eba could control the employment of casuals or full time.
Please do not mistake my post as bitterness toward the FAAA! I have always supported them as my association and always will. However I believe that greater industrial power should be exercised by the FAAA (in my opinion). I am frustrated at the company's blatent and on-going disregard toward the EBA in a number of areas.
As previously mentioned I am one of few people on the transfer list ex-Perth who is happy. I am annoyed that key clauses in the EBA that REALLY matter to many people (who are unhappy in Perth, for example) are not being enforced.
Why would I care about the transfers if it doesn't really affect me all that much? Becuase I can see how stressful the current arrangements are for some and how unhappy some people seem. Call me old-fashioned but I am thinking of others over myself when voicing these concerns. The EBA should be followed and it hasn't been. Why shouldn't I want what is right for everyone, even if it isn't really important to myself?
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Ditzyboy
Politely....... get a grip ! I was genuniely not having a go at you, I thought I had made that clear. Never mind, you've vented, you've told me read clauses in an EBA I don't have and you've explained to everyone that is not really YOU your concerned about, it all your colleagues on the transfer list.
Your a saint !!!!! Please accept my apologies for imagining that you might extend that sympathy and concern to other crew in other airlines. I know....... what was I thinking !!!!
Politely....... get a grip ! I was genuniely not having a go at you, I thought I had made that clear. Never mind, you've vented, you've told me read clauses in an EBA I don't have and you've explained to everyone that is not really YOU your concerned about, it all your colleagues on the transfer list.
Your a saint !!!!! Please accept my apologies for imagining that you might extend that sympathy and concern to other crew in other airlines. I know....... what was I thinking !!!!
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RegionalGuy -
It wasn't clear anywhere in your post that you weren't having a go at me. You basically insinuated that I had no place in whinging as I took a Perth position and have to live with it. I have never whinged about Perth and I couldn't be happier with my lifestyle currently. Rather than sitting back and whinging like most FAs I am making the situation work for me. Just as I learned to at Jetstar. Alot of crew find that ability very threatening. Are you one of them?
Like I said you will be seeing me in Perth more often than not if and when my transfer comes up. I am not holding my breathe, that's for sure.
Again your sarcasm leads me to believe you are having a go at me. If you think that wanting what is rightfully yours (even if it isn't that important to you - but important to your colleagues) is wrong then I beg my pardon. I think it is normal. Despite the efforts of the FAAA we are being dealt a raw deal, in my opinion. The fact I came across on Career Progression doesn't come into it. It certainly doens't mean I have to be so thankful for the SH position (which was rightfully mine under the EBA I was employed under) that I let the company do as they please when it directly contradicts the EBA and affects the lives of many, including myself.
What an attitude to have. "I came across on Career Progression - treat me as you please..." I am sorry, but I just don't get it. Are you suggesting I have less rights under the EBA?
Coming across on Career Progession one expects I would be appreciative of the position at SH. I think that is blatently obvious from my passion regarding my job and employment conditons. I know of some who seemingly do take CP for granted. I am not one of them.
Yet you found it perfectly acceptable to be questioning and berating me for opinions I have after actually reading it? 
It wasn't clear anywhere in your post that you weren't having a go at me. You basically insinuated that I had no place in whinging as I took a Perth position and have to live with it. I have never whinged about Perth and I couldn't be happier with my lifestyle currently. Rather than sitting back and whinging like most FAs I am making the situation work for me. Just as I learned to at Jetstar. Alot of crew find that ability very threatening. Are you one of them?
Like I said you will be seeing me in Perth more often than not if and when my transfer comes up. I am not holding my breathe, that's for sure.
Your a saint !!!!!
What an attitude to have. "I came across on Career Progression - treat me as you please..." I am sorry, but I just don't get it. Are you suggesting I have less rights under the EBA?
Coming across on Career Progession one expects I would be appreciative of the position at SH. I think that is blatently obvious from my passion regarding my job and employment conditons. I know of some who seemingly do take CP for granted. I am not one of them.
you've told me read clauses in an EBA I don't have
Last edited by ditzyboy; 4th Jul 2007 at 05:27.
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Ditzyboy
Just a couple of points after talking to the FAAA.
1. Your Jetstar EBA did not (nor does any other EBA) contain career progression, just a committment to it by EAA/SS/JQ, the FAAA and QF it's an industrial contract between them. Splitting hairs I admit but a fact nonetheless.
2. Clause 19 of the SH EBA refers to casuals employed directly by QF not MAM casuals, they have their own EBA. Therefore no breach as you stated in your earlier post. Yes knowledge is power if you get it right.
3. The law does prohibit a union even trying to control or cap a casualised workforce and hefty fines are applied by WorkChoices.
4. I would have thought the word politely was enough for you to know that I wasn't have a go at you in the first place.
and finally get a life, your self sacrificing rant is pathetic. I didn't once suggest you should accept what ever is thrown at you because you came from JQ, I was suggesting that life for you must surely be better than where you came from.
Oh I almost forgot, the AO crew aren't initial trainees as far as the EBA goes. They will never be on an initial wage, they are not doing intitial training, but conversion training and to boot there are no base vacancies, so I guess the 1:1 was a good outcome not lawn fertilizer as you put it. Amazing what a call to the union can do for obtaining facts. You did ask to be told if you were missing something, no need to thank me, it's my pleasure.
And do I find your abilities threatening ?....... no I just find you amusing !!!!
Just a couple of points after talking to the FAAA.
1. Your Jetstar EBA did not (nor does any other EBA) contain career progression, just a committment to it by EAA/SS/JQ, the FAAA and QF it's an industrial contract between them. Splitting hairs I admit but a fact nonetheless.
2. Clause 19 of the SH EBA refers to casuals employed directly by QF not MAM casuals, they have their own EBA. Therefore no breach as you stated in your earlier post. Yes knowledge is power if you get it right.
3. The law does prohibit a union even trying to control or cap a casualised workforce and hefty fines are applied by WorkChoices.
4. I would have thought the word politely was enough for you to know that I wasn't have a go at you in the first place.
and finally get a life, your self sacrificing rant is pathetic. I didn't once suggest you should accept what ever is thrown at you because you came from JQ, I was suggesting that life for you must surely be better than where you came from.
Oh I almost forgot, the AO crew aren't initial trainees as far as the EBA goes. They will never be on an initial wage, they are not doing intitial training, but conversion training and to boot there are no base vacancies, so I guess the 1:1 was a good outcome not lawn fertilizer as you put it. Amazing what a call to the union can do for obtaining facts. You did ask to be told if you were missing something, no need to thank me, it's my pleasure.
And do I find your abilities threatening ?....... no I just find you amusing !!!!
Last edited by regionalguy; 4th Jul 2007 at 07:10.
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The FAAA will only tell you what they want you to hear.....
It's all rather simple, I don't think it is unreasonable to question the process that has taken place here.
Those who in recent years, secured a position through CP, went to Perth inorder to make it reality. So, why is it that different airlines are getting different treatment? There is no consistency here. Come from J* and you have to go to Perth, come from AO and you get (be it limited) opportunities to stay on the East Coast.
Of course it about our collegues at times. Anything that takes place, weather if directly effects us or not, has an impact on our ability to maintain our current conditions as well as negotiate further agreements.
LL hit the nail on the head...
This is what is damaging us the most....
It's all rather simple, I don't think it is unreasonable to question the process that has taken place here.
Those who in recent years, secured a position through CP, went to Perth inorder to make it reality. So, why is it that different airlines are getting different treatment? There is no consistency here. Come from J* and you have to go to Perth, come from AO and you get (be it limited) opportunities to stay on the East Coast.
.......and you've explained to everyone that is not really YOU your concerned about, it all your colleagues on the transfer list
LL hit the nail on the head...
This really is the 'ME' generation.
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Samford
I agree with you and LL, the ME generation is definately our biggest problem.
The union, yes they will tell us what they want us to hear, but after checking with them and reading the agreement (yes ditzy i found one) they seem to be on the ball. AO aren't initial trainees, in fact the woman at the FAAA said the offer to AO was a bit like CP only without any formal contract saying so and the alternative was no jobs for them at all. Since QF can offer employment to whoever they want and where ever they want, I only see it as a good thing for them. Yes it is upsetting for those wanting to get out of Perth, but I think the bigger picture really is that the AO crew have secure jobs now.
Like I've said before, I'm not upset about the AO crew getting SH jobs whether that be east coast or west, I wish it did count for actioning CP but thats life I guess. They should also be considered our colleagues and given the same "one in all in" attitude, especially if we're going to try and combat the ME generation !
I agree with you and LL, the ME generation is definately our biggest problem.
The union, yes they will tell us what they want us to hear, but after checking with them and reading the agreement (yes ditzy i found one) they seem to be on the ball. AO aren't initial trainees, in fact the woman at the FAAA said the offer to AO was a bit like CP only without any formal contract saying so and the alternative was no jobs for them at all. Since QF can offer employment to whoever they want and where ever they want, I only see it as a good thing for them. Yes it is upsetting for those wanting to get out of Perth, but I think the bigger picture really is that the AO crew have secure jobs now.
Like I've said before, I'm not upset about the AO crew getting SH jobs whether that be east coast or west, I wish it did count for actioning CP but thats life I guess. They should also be considered our colleagues and given the same "one in all in" attitude, especially if we're going to try and combat the ME generation !
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Regional Guy -
I agree with what you say in the last paragraph of your last post. I am happy for AO crew that they got such a great deal.
Well the EBA that I am employed under begs to differ.
I think it is unfair for the union to decide that AO are not initial trainees for the purposes of the arguement. What is an initial trainee? If there is no definition and the FAAA decided the above just now then they have the following to answer for;
Why is the FAAA better representing AO crew, who are new to the union, over long-time loyal FAAA Domestic members at both SH and JQ/regionals? That isn't a rant or whinge but a valid question, and one I would like to see answered.
I agree with what you say in the last paragraph of your last post. I am happy for AO crew that they got such a great deal.
Since QF can offer employment to whoever they want and where ever they want,
AO aren't initial trainees
Why is the FAAA better representing AO crew, who are new to the union, over long-time loyal FAAA Domestic members at both SH and JQ/regionals? That isn't a rant or whinge but a valid question, and one I would like to see answered.
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"I think it is unfair for the union to decide that AO are not initial trainees for the purposes of the arguement. What is an initial trainee?"
On the basis that subsidiary crew under CP have to attend a full training course, vs AO crew doing a conversion, you could make the argument that we should also only do a conversion course. If AO crew can do it in 7 days, then why not subsidiary crew...add a few more days to cover the minimums, and you have quite a saving over the entire 5-6 week initial course CP crew need to attend. Wasn't the service training simply a take home DVD??
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Excuse me Mr Seatback 2 for your information career progression and mam crew are service trained via a dvd played to crew in a classroom, in the basement of some random catering centre somewhere, take home DVD please!
We can argue what an initial is all day long so more importantly what is happening with career progression any news of late and has anyone heard of numbers being transfered from AO into the east coast.
We can argue what an initial is all day long so more importantly what is happening with career progression any news of late and has anyone heard of numbers being transfered from AO into the east coast.
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Those who in recent years, secured a position through CP, went to Perth in order to make it reality. So, why is it that different airlines are getting different treatment? There is no consistency here. Come from J* and you have to go to Perth, come from AO and you get (be it limited) opportunities to stay on the East Coast.
Not all CP crew have been forced to go to PER to make it a reality. MEL & SYD were bases offered in late 2004 to EAA/SUNSTATE/JQ. One could argue AO crew moved to CNS 'to make it a reality' also. Many people I know turned their noses up at AO because the thought of moving to CNS was too much. Spare some thought for the 300 AO crew who actually did move to CNS ( similar to those who move to PER as a result of CP ) from capital cities to make their flying dream a career. We have served our time in a place where we don't prefer to live for the QF group, so why shouldn't we have a chance at a southern base ?
NEXT...
Why is the FAAA better representing AO crew, who are new to the union, over long-time loyal FAAA Domestic members at both SH and JQ/regionals? That isn't a rant or whinge but a valid question, and one I would like to see answered.
I was once a committed member of the FAAA Domestic, and since then a 3 year member of FAAA international. Many AO crew are ex Ansett crew who paid fees to the domestic FAAA for MANY years (long before the establishment of Impulse/JQ) , one could argue why isn't more being done to look after these people who had been paying fees for much longer than anyone in the FAAA domestic ?
I have paid my fees to the FAAA dom/international for over 5 years now - I want to be looked after also, just like you and everyone else.
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I think it would impossible for the union, with this situation or any other for that matter, to decide that longer paying members deserve better representation, or prioritised representation. In fact I think that in a lot of cases the more new to the job you are the more service you need from the union regarding T&C etc on a day to day basis anyway.
If we had to have the argument, I agree with Skywalker, a lot of the AO crew are ex Ansett and on that basis alone would give them "longer serving status". Having said that I don't think its a street we would want to go down. All members deserve equal representation and for my two cents worth I think they've done a good job loooking after all concerned under the circumstances.
If we had to have the argument, I agree with Skywalker, a lot of the AO crew are ex Ansett and on that basis alone would give them "longer serving status". Having said that I don't think its a street we would want to go down. All members deserve equal representation and for my two cents worth I think they've done a good job loooking after all concerned under the circumstances.
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It's not about "having a chance at a southern base", nor is about "making a flying dream a career". My point is about consistency. A waiting list is a waiting list and the time it takes to move up that list is getting longer and longer.
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6 July, 2007
Attention All Qantas Group Flight Attendants’
SPECIAL CAREER PROGRESSION ARRANGEMENT
On 6 July 2007 agreement was reached with Qantas on a special one off Career Progression arrangement to allow some limited movement into the Short Haul Division from wholly owned subsidiaries and MAM Casuals.
By way of background, as part of Short Haul EBA 7 negotiations, a commitment was given to the Association by the Company that some movement into Short Haul would occur subject to the Short Haul EBA certification.
The number of full time positions being offered will be as follows:
· Current Part Time Short Haul flight attendants’ on the waitlist to revert to Full Time will be actioned.
· 15 Progression opportunities will be made available to Eastern, Sunstate and Jetstar on the basis of 5 per airline.
· 20 opportunities will be made available to MAM casuals subject to a merit based selection process.
· In accordance with Qantas operational requirements all 35 positions will be within the Perth base.
Further, as part of this agreement, the Association and Qantas Management will enter into renewed discussions to review the existing Career Progression arrangements. This review will be aimed at reaching agreement on a new model for progression to apply into the future.
All members should note, that while the numbers moving into Short Haul are limited, it is nonetheless pleasing news that Qantas has reached this agreement and equally as important, still prepared to sit down and discuss a new Career Progression Agreement for the future.
Written and authorised by Dannielle Morgan, National Industrial Officer and
John Playford Manager Industrial Relations, for and on behalf of
Jo Ann Davidson, Divisional Secretary
Attention All Qantas Group Flight Attendants’
SPECIAL CAREER PROGRESSION ARRANGEMENT
On 6 July 2007 agreement was reached with Qantas on a special one off Career Progression arrangement to allow some limited movement into the Short Haul Division from wholly owned subsidiaries and MAM Casuals.
By way of background, as part of Short Haul EBA 7 negotiations, a commitment was given to the Association by the Company that some movement into Short Haul would occur subject to the Short Haul EBA certification.
The number of full time positions being offered will be as follows:
· Current Part Time Short Haul flight attendants’ on the waitlist to revert to Full Time will be actioned.
· 15 Progression opportunities will be made available to Eastern, Sunstate and Jetstar on the basis of 5 per airline.
· 20 opportunities will be made available to MAM casuals subject to a merit based selection process.
· In accordance with Qantas operational requirements all 35 positions will be within the Perth base.
Further, as part of this agreement, the Association and Qantas Management will enter into renewed discussions to review the existing Career Progression arrangements. This review will be aimed at reaching agreement on a new model for progression to apply into the future.
All members should note, that while the numbers moving into Short Haul are limited, it is nonetheless pleasing news that Qantas has reached this agreement and equally as important, still prepared to sit down and discuss a new Career Progression Agreement for the future.
Written and authorised by Dannielle Morgan, National Industrial Officer and
John Playford Manager Industrial Relations, for and on behalf of
Jo Ann Davidson, Divisional Secretary
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Congrats to all AO crew who all received their first prefs. 
Welcome to QF s/h. Comiserations to the AO CSM's who were unsuccessful holding onto their role, on this occasion. 
Interesting to note, out of the nine, all (bar one) were ex AO/FW/QF and all the unsuccessful gals were yummy mummies.............
As in every decison in every company around the world, there appears injustice and favouritism. But being AO crew, I'm sure you all have been far more exposed to favouritism and nepotism than lots of us realise. All I can say is, be professional and resilient and 'av another go in Dec. when all the travellers head off to 'Ol Blighty and business needs are re-assessed. Must be difficult as a CSM to be told you didn't make the grade, yet have to go to work and f'ly the flag' as a CSM for a while longer! At least you get your first 6 months pay on CSM rates to ease the transition.
Congrats also to all who will be positively affected by the most recent CP announcement. I wouldn't underestimate the influence of the debates in this forum in giving issues perspective to the 'eyes that read'.
Look forward to seeing all the fresh, positive AO faces on-line as they start to filter through.
Welcome to QF s/h. Comiserations to the AO CSM's who were unsuccessful holding onto their role, on this occasion. Interesting to note, out of the nine, all (bar one) were ex AO/FW/QF and all the unsuccessful gals were yummy mummies.............As in every decison in every company around the world, there appears injustice and favouritism. But being AO crew, I'm sure you all have been far more exposed to favouritism and nepotism than lots of us realise.
All I can say is, be professional and resilient and 'av another go in Dec. when all the travellers head off to 'Ol Blighty and business needs are re-assessed. Must be difficult as a CSM to be told you didn't make the grade, yet have to go to work and f'ly the flag' as a CSM for a while longer! At least you get your first 6 months pay on CSM rates to ease the transition.Congrats also to all who will be positively affected by the most recent CP announcement. I wouldn't underestimate the influence of the debates in this forum in giving issues perspective to the 'eyes that read'.
Look forward to seeing all the fresh, positive AO faces on-line as they start to filter through.
