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Jetstar New Hire Pilots (AWAs)

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Jetstar New Hire Pilots (AWAs)

Old 14th May 2007, 02:54
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It would seem then that the majority of the posts on this thread are along the lines of, 'each body has done things to piss the other body of, but we have to get over it for the future'.

I would like to think that if we can learn to accept that no one side is blameless, acknowledge it and then move forward we should ALL see a very very prosperous future, especially building into the figures a real shortage on the way.

If not, I guess we'll all see each other at the bottom...

Twin.
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Old 14th May 2007, 04:10
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I have a completely different take on these AWA's. I believe the company wants them because on the current T&C's, they simply cannot find the pilots to fuel the expansion and therefore they are going to offer these new hires MORE money and better working conditions to get them to sign on.
We have been talking about pilot shortages for some time and I believe that the time has finally arrived. There is certain demand for pilots and a finite supply. As the pay and conditions go up the supply goes up (demand goes down of course). At the current pay for Jetstar pilots there is simply not enough supply to meet Jetstars demand. Therefore, they have to offer more to the new guys, but they are going to try to do it by shafting the current employees and not changing their pay and conditions. In effect, the current Jetstar pilots will subsidize the operation if they allow it to happen.
But this is what we have been waiting for as a pilot group. A lack of supply of pilots at the current wage, thus wages should go up. There was no doubt that when Jetstar pilots agreed to the last EBA, the company had been willing to offer more, but we didn't have the balls to say no. Now is our chance to redeem ourselves.
The only way the JPC should agree to AWA's is if the company opens the current EBA back up for amendment and some of the stuff that has to happen:
1. Immediate 20% pay raise across the board
2. Immediate change to 12 days off in 31 day months, 11 in 30 day months.
3. 65% for F/O's
4. Eliminate junior f/o and cruise F/O salaries
5. No pay for endorsement
6. Limit on number of AVAIL days each month when rostered over 75 hours.
7. Insert your wish
8. Insert your wish
9. Insert your wish
I believe that the pilot shortage is upon us, at least at this pay and conditions level. Once Tiger and anyone else moves into the Australia market it will only get better.
Now is the time to band together and move forward. Luck is opportunity meeting preparation....I believe the opportunity has arrived, the question is is are we prepared or at least ready to prepare??
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Old 14th May 2007, 05:18
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Mr Al Coholic,

AIPA took Qantas to court, not the Jetstar pilots.

You will find that in case history involving a proven transmission of business the judge has always left the staff in place and has given them the conditions from the transferred entity.

Wholesale sackings would never happen because the basis of Transmission of business is only about the terms and conditions involved. It has nothing to do with which individuals do the work.

So if AIPA had won, not a single Jetstar pilot would have been moved, it is just that Jetstar 330 pilots would have got a rather large raise.

I reckon this proves that, generally, AIPA has honourable intentions. They (meaning us QF pilots) were funding a legal action which would see Jetstar guys get the bonus.

The win for QF pilots would have been the removal of a very stark comparison that presently exists for widebody T&C's within the group.
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Old 14th May 2007, 06:21
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Pardon my ignorance

What is wrong with AWA's when there is a "Pilot Shortage”?

Won't the market forces dictate higher pay like in the mining sector?
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Old 14th May 2007, 07:58
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Jetstar Media Release

http://www.jetstar.com/pdf/news/20070514.pdf
Hmm...UAL Furlough, looking at the spin JQ is putting on it, I think it might be a bit of wishful thinking on your behalf. I can't help but think that they're locking people in to a ****ty 5 year deal because they know the pilot shortage is looming - it's not quite here yet.


(Edit: 666th post, how appropriate that it's about the Orange Starred Devil!)
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Old 14th May 2007, 08:12
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AWA's favour the strong. Airlines have the upper hand at the moment so they will try and screw over all and sundry.
However they will find it "coming straight back at them" if there is suddenly more labour pressure.
If Tiger were smart here they could nail Jetstar big time by offering good T & C.

If that happens Jetstar could find themselves with a shortage of crews and noone willing to sign. Or alternatively sign up for 6 months then leave for somewhere else.

These AWA's could either be a master stroke, screwing down T & C or the beginning of the end if there is suddenly more pressure on pilot labour.

If Jetstar are trying to discourage young people from becoming pilots they sure are going the right way about it

http://www.smh.com.au/news/business/...994998646.html
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Old 14th May 2007, 08:40
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TL,

You could be right....but I believe that they had problems recruiting the captains they needed for the initial A-330 and with 9 more A-320's on the way and more A-330's plus the 787 needing to be addressed soon, I believe they are going to have problems getting captains. So my guess is the "flexibility" that they want is the ability to attract captains with higher pay, while at the same time trying to screw it to the entry level cruise f/o's and F/O's.

Time will tell. No matter the answer, if T&C's stay the same, there will eventually be a mass exodus from Jetstar. If I was Virgin and Tiger, I would recruit hard from Jetstar just to decimate their work force. It's hard to compete with your aircraft parked in the corner.
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Old 14th May 2007, 09:33
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Work the numbers

EBA's AWAs or whatever, do the numbers. J* curently has approx 350 pilots with an anticipated pilot work force of maybe 800-900 by 2010. The halfway point is nearly there, so from mid next year new hire F/O's WILL have to wait YEARS for a command, a la virgin etc...while DEC on AWA's absorb the expansion.
Don't you just luv this industry...
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Old 14th May 2007, 21:12
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Mmmmmmm.

There is plenty of sentiment of "lets all get it together for the sake of us all" going on in this thread.

Problem is, people like DM have come along and usurped the industry. Face facts. It has happened. Do we really expect his ilk to now stand up and say that it is wrong for others to do the exact same? Yes, but only if his head is on the chopping block. He knows full well that others will take his job given half the chance, and management will stand back laughing.

Others have stated here that pilots are in this for themselves, always have, always will.

It absolutely disgusts me when DM's type do what they do, then turn around and condemn others for doing the same thing. It is the height of hypocrisy. And DM wonders why we have zero respect for him.....

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Old 14th May 2007, 21:35
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AWAs are all about removing your ability to collectively negotiate. When you have the ability to collectively negotiate you will, by definition, be in a much stronger position at the negotiating table and therefore be able to negotiate a better outcome. I cannot believe that some people here believe the government hype that AWAs allow better pay and conditions. Using the WA mining industry as an example is a phurphy. To compare "apples with apples" you would have to say how much better off would WA mining industry workers be if they were able to collectively bargain, not simply compare them to other industries in other locations. The mining industry does not like the Labor IR position because it removes its ability to LOWER pay and conditions that Work Choices gives them.

AWAs are bad for workers in all market conditions, boom or bust, shortage of labour or glut.
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Old 14th May 2007, 22:38
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This all about giving Jetstar the ability to recruit Direct Entry Captains for the coming expansion, and bypassing all you current Jetstar crews. Great company hey.
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Old 14th May 2007, 23:19
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Lateline Business

Did anyone else see Lateline Business on the ABC last night? The Garden Gnome from Jetstar was on doing his best Pinocchio impression. He's looking for more flexibility by putting people on AWAs along with the Qantas Groups catchphrase of sustainable management solutions going forward..............in other words screw the workers so management can receive a bigger bonus
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Old 14th May 2007, 23:59
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How good would the conditions in WA Mining be under AWA's if there was a surplus of mining engineers, and mining workers for the last 20 years, all out to undercut each other, and take the piss out of each other at every opportunity??
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Old 15th May 2007, 00:52
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Do Not Go Down An AWA Road. There have been several posts suggesting AWA's are good in a shortage market. Wrong, while some people may reap a short term benefit there is a flexibility there that will allow that to become easily erroded.

AWA's can be changed and if one or two of your workforce accepts the new amendment then the rest of you will be painted as troublemakers. The signees will be working different conditions while you are not. Not a good thing for harmony.

When it comes time for you to re negotiate the 50% numbers will see some people targeted to sign the new one. They may get more, leaving the other 50% less. Oh you can stay on the old one, again with different T&C's. You may also see the targetees losing or having their benefits erroded. You should always remember you will have to give something up that may not be evident at the beginning, but might make your life less fun.

If there are several versions all new hires will be given the worst AWA and told to sign. There will be no indication of another, again having people on different T&C's.

AWA's are very useful in seperating workforces and identifying "troublemakers" as well as constantly tweaking conditions in an employers favour. On an industry level they again fracture and divide, making animosity and losing the cohesion that works for everyone.

Collective bargaining has it's own problems but at least everyone is on the same page. Employers are in a good position now but maybe the pendulum has swung a bit too far and we should remember the further it swings one way the further it has to swing back. That won't help anyone.
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Old 15th May 2007, 02:22
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How good would the conditions in WA Mining be under AWA's if there was a surplus of mining engineers, and mining workers for the last 20 years, all out to undercut each other, and take the piss out of each other at every opportunity??
Good point but people generally only get into mining because of the money. If a guy could live in Perth and earn the same money as he did on the mine noone would go and work in the mining sector. So AWA or no AWA mine workers will always be paid well as people won't go and work for peanuts.

In aviation everyone is so desperate to climb the greasy pole of endorsements they will happily screw over all and sundry just to get a jet job. That is the real issue in aviation. Australian pilots are becoming some of the lowest paid aviators in the world, and this happened before AWAs.
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Old 15th May 2007, 03:50
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Mr. Nobody, you are correct of course but collective EBA's have some sort of safety margin in the sense that everyone is getting the same. By opening up the AWA genie you will see individuals accepting less to climb that greasy pole. With EBA's it's harder to say " it'll cost you less to use me and and not that bloke".
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Old 15th May 2007, 06:05
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WOG and Headmaster are spot-on. AWA's are between an individual and the company and because they are confidential there can be an infinite number of different terms and conditions from one pilot to the next that wont be available for viewing like an EBA. Taking away an EBA removes the bargaining power of a large group. Do you think the Qantas board would be doing this if it wasn't absolutely in THEIR interest. "Flexibility" is just the tip of the iceberg. The whole spin that it is better for the employees is just garbage.
The most interesting fact now is that it really is only a matter of discussion for any Pilot or Engineering body now. There is NOTHING that can be done legally to stop these AWA's being implemented. Qantas wants it to happen so it will and Jetstar wont be the only one affected. I have been told by several people that all new hires in Qantas when they recruit again will be offered AWA's. NJS have been on them for years haven't they?
I'm certainly not happy about it and if there is anyone out there who has a workable plan to unite ALL our groups and somehow preserve what little we have left rather than continually bagging each other then i'd love to hear it.
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Old 15th May 2007, 06:10
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Word around the traps is the majority of Jetstar guys are going sick, or refusal to work a day off on Friday 25th May (3rd Birthdate of JQ), as a protest to the AWA's. AJ mentions on lateline he has a good relationship with the pilot body-he might realise the consequenses of his actions when hardly any Airbuses are going that day.

Good luck fellas/ladies.

Last edited by Voodoo Guru; 15th May 2007 at 06:12. Reason: Typo
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Old 15th May 2007, 06:50
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What are the implications of the JPC implementing a recruitment ban?Sort of what cathay and dragon have done over the past couple of years.Pilots join the company under the eba or not at all!
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Old 15th May 2007, 07:00
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Voodoo,

Sounds like the best minds of 89' have got back together on that one, yea boys and girls I'm sure the star will take that one laying down, not.

I'd be surprised if anyone goes sick on the day for fear of having their ass sued off, not even a death certificate would stop the lawyers swooping in.

Dream on - J* and unity
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