Go 'Round or I'll dob ya!
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Go 'Round or I'll dob ya!
CRM is all very fine and the various recommended phrases in order of urgency are spelt out in most Ops Manuals (I presume).
"Captain - we are too fast."
"Captain - We are too high."
"Captain - We must go-around."
And the captain replies "No problem, we'll be right."
Or how about this one which is truly scary:
"Please captain - don't kill us." (Japan Airlines DC8 suicide crash Tokyo Bay 1982)
So what does CRM dictate now? Does the first officer attempt to wrestle control from someone who is intent on pressing on regardless? Or in sheer desperation does the F/O pull up the gear and hopefully force a go-around?
Both are dangerous measures and not the ideal answer. But then clearly under those circumstances the captain is not the ideal captain, either.
Forget the professional niceties and get real for a change. A firm call from the first officer of "Go Around - or I'll dob ya" is likely to shock a recalictrant captain more than a polite request and has a better chance of achieving the desired result. Do you agree or not.
"Captain - we are too fast."
"Captain - We are too high."
"Captain - We must go-around."
And the captain replies "No problem, we'll be right."
Or how about this one which is truly scary:
"Please captain - don't kill us." (Japan Airlines DC8 suicide crash Tokyo Bay 1982)
So what does CRM dictate now? Does the first officer attempt to wrestle control from someone who is intent on pressing on regardless? Or in sheer desperation does the F/O pull up the gear and hopefully force a go-around?
Both are dangerous measures and not the ideal answer. But then clearly under those circumstances the captain is not the ideal captain, either.
Forget the professional niceties and get real for a change. A firm call from the first officer of "Go Around - or I'll dob ya" is likely to shock a recalictrant captain more than a polite request and has a better chance of achieving the desired result. Do you agree or not.
Last edited by Centaurus; 7th Apr 2007 at 08:04.
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I find it hard to believe there are captains out there who would not initiate a go-arround when the F/O (or any tech crew member) calls it. If there are, they're in the wrong job.
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I find it hard to believe there are captains out there who would not initiate a go-arround when the F/O (or any tech crew member) calls it
Scottydoo.
Wrong. The subject is deadly serious as no doubt the unfortunate passengers on the recent Garuda 737 crash will attest.
The Reverend
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It has happened before, admittedtly prior to CRM days. Capt. and FO at odds during approach to RW 13 at Kai Tak in typhoon condition. Resolved by the Flight Engineer setting go around thrust at 200 feet. End of argument!
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I think the problem is the CREW not deciding to go-around rather than certain crew members not complying with a go-around command. Like an abort command during the takeoff roll, this is one of the times when no discussion is to be entered into.
Tee Emm
I've been around long enough to know that these days there is no place for a captain who would not comply with this very basic requirement that I'm sure is written into every airlines SOPs. He/she wouldn't have a leg to stand on in defence.
Tee Emm
I've been around long enough to know that these days there is no place for a captain who would not comply with this very basic requirement that I'm sure is written into every airlines SOPs. He/she wouldn't have a leg to stand on in defence.
The engineer was not showing good crm he just wanted to save his own life regardless of the others. Have flown with alot of Captains who once you question their actions whether correct or not become very defensive and no longer act as a two crew operation. SOP's are suppose to help aleviate this situation but they only work to a certain degree. people of certain calibre have to always prove they are worthly of their position in the company and will do absurd things to maintain their position. This unfortunately applies to a **** load of pilots and there lies one of the industry's main problems. But remember it may lay dormant for a long time until a situation arises. Which with the new technology we fly these days make these situations fairly sparse.
nig not nog
nig not nog
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Quote...Cent....Or how about this one which is truly scary:
"Please captain - don't kill us." (Japan Airlines DC8 suicide crash Tokyo Bay 1982)
and mate I do remember that one........also do you remember the JAL incident in San Francisco.......when they dumped it into the Bay......had several older friends flying for IASCO at the time who were involved in that incident.... but last comment on the CVR before the crew exited was
....."so what do you reckon now Tojo....UP PERISCSOPE!!! "
NB....amos2 ....little harsh dont you think...and define what constitutes the older younger stuff.....seems to me their are many more aircraft around when you were flying with lindy
"Please captain - don't kill us." (Japan Airlines DC8 suicide crash Tokyo Bay 1982)
and mate I do remember that one........also do you remember the JAL incident in San Francisco.......when they dumped it into the Bay......had several older friends flying for IASCO at the time who were involved in that incident.... but last comment on the CVR before the crew exited was
....."so what do you reckon now Tojo....UP PERISCSOPE!!! "
NB....amos2 ....little harsh dont you think...and define what constitutes the older younger stuff.....seems to me their are many more aircraft around when you were flying with lindy
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.........there is one factor that can't be perfected, controlled or 'bred' into when it comes to CRM...........& that's the human factor !...........we as humans unlike machines can't be relied upon all the time every time to do the right thing the first time (unlike a well oiled machine, hopefully), hence these days CRM is the 'in word' in an attemp to reduce the above, & in the most it works well.
....still we can learn, there in lies what humans do best, learn from their mistakes, (well we'd like to think so). CFIT (Controlled Flight Into Terrain) is the perfect Eg, we have here pilots highly trained/experienced with ultra modern equip but still at times they simply fly into the ground, why?........read above, where fickled beings, the human factor & in some cases culture will always reign when the spam hits the fan. At the end of the day we have two major 'resolves' when the pressure is on, "fight of flight" (as in run away from the problem). We as prof pilots all know that if it doesn't look right we 'go around', lets trust we can make that decision if & when the chips are down.
Capt Wally:-)
....still we can learn, there in lies what humans do best, learn from their mistakes, (well we'd like to think so). CFIT (Controlled Flight Into Terrain) is the perfect Eg, we have here pilots highly trained/experienced with ultra modern equip but still at times they simply fly into the ground, why?........read above, where fickled beings, the human factor & in some cases culture will always reign when the spam hits the fan. At the end of the day we have two major 'resolves' when the pressure is on, "fight of flight" (as in run away from the problem). We as prof pilots all know that if it doesn't look right we 'go around', lets trust we can make that decision if & when the chips are down.
Capt Wally:-)
Grandpa Aerotart
I think that engineer was applying excellent CRM...The Captain was a Resource which he Managed
In an overall sense I don't see a major problem...99.9% of pilots, of whatever ethnic background, know what looks right and what doesn't and respond appropriately. Perhaps the only problem is modern society unreasonably expecting perfection.
Certainly there are a small number of incidents of this nature that end in fatalities...but compare that average annual fatality rate to the world wide road toll.
I don't have accurate numbers at hand but I believe the comparison would be in the order of single digits for aircraft accidents world wide where not going around was an issue as opposed to 10000+ for the average yrly road toll world wide.
The overall fatal accident rate aircraft vs road transport would be similar...several hundred vs 10's of thousands annually.
Society doesn't react to the road toll but they can be whipped up over a plane crash...I think this easter weekend road toll already matches that for GA200. More people slip over taking a bath and die than die in aircraft accidents or via terrorist attack. 1000's die annually from medical mistakes in hospitals...we still take baths, drive cars, and let doctors cut holes in us.
Society REALLY needs to regain a sense of perspective.
In an overall sense I don't see a major problem...99.9% of pilots, of whatever ethnic background, know what looks right and what doesn't and respond appropriately. Perhaps the only problem is modern society unreasonably expecting perfection.
Certainly there are a small number of incidents of this nature that end in fatalities...but compare that average annual fatality rate to the world wide road toll.
I don't have accurate numbers at hand but I believe the comparison would be in the order of single digits for aircraft accidents world wide where not going around was an issue as opposed to 10000+ for the average yrly road toll world wide.
The overall fatal accident rate aircraft vs road transport would be similar...several hundred vs 10's of thousands annually.
Society doesn't react to the road toll but they can be whipped up over a plane crash...I think this easter weekend road toll already matches that for GA200. More people slip over taking a bath and die than die in aircraft accidents or via terrorist attack. 1000's die annually from medical mistakes in hospitals...we still take baths, drive cars, and let doctors cut holes in us.
Society REALLY needs to regain a sense of perspective.
