A unified Union from top to bottom.
Grandpa Aerotart
Education.
Perhaps AFAP should make presentations to all students undergoing CPL training...at TAFE colleges or the larger flying schools.
Perhaps CFIs could incorporate 1st year AFAP membership within the quoted CPL syllabus cost so that all brand new CPLs graduate with membership and can evaluate it for 12 mths before deciding to renew or not.
Perhaps AFAP should make presentations to all students undergoing CPL training...at TAFE colleges or the larger flying schools.
Perhaps CFIs could incorporate 1st year AFAP membership within the quoted CPL syllabus cost so that all brand new CPLs graduate with membership and can evaluate it for 12 mths before deciding to renew or not.
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Now that is a plan!
To expand on it a little, could a fund not be set up as EWL suggested, to provide first years membership free to new CPL's? I know you don't like the idea of a 'free lunch', but the good will that it creates will be repaid many fold in the future, perhaps not in monetary value but certainly in kind.
Whilst I am at it, why is there no mentoring system for pilots? I am sure fresh CPL's would benefit by learning from aviation veterans! There are things you just can't learn from a flying school!
Times they are a changing, we need to change too in order to keep our profession prosperous.
To expand on it a little, could a fund not be set up as EWL suggested, to provide first years membership free to new CPL's? I know you don't like the idea of a 'free lunch', but the good will that it creates will be repaid many fold in the future, perhaps not in monetary value but certainly in kind.
Whilst I am at it, why is there no mentoring system for pilots? I am sure fresh CPL's would benefit by learning from aviation veterans! There are things you just can't learn from a flying school!
Times they are a changing, we need to change too in order to keep our profession prosperous.
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Now that is a direction Howard.
First year coverage and a way to sort out recalcitrant employers, and also to provide a larger base to ensure conditions and treatment of Pilots in later years. Just so long as the Union does not go into "bulletproof and too damned important" mode which is what shagged the puppy in the last major instance.
My "rough" idea has just taken on some logic. New drivers just out of flight school, would be in general very low on funds as they have probably sold their souls to pay for the qualifications. Year one coverage will ensure they are not gang banged by employers.
While the industry has you guys and girls in the front line and in total control, us leeches and all the ancilliary people that make it all happen have an even money chance of retaining a semblance of normality. Make it so Captains.
EWL
First year coverage and a way to sort out recalcitrant employers, and also to provide a larger base to ensure conditions and treatment of Pilots in later years. Just so long as the Union does not go into "bulletproof and too damned important" mode which is what shagged the puppy in the last major instance.
My "rough" idea has just taken on some logic. New drivers just out of flight school, would be in general very low on funds as they have probably sold their souls to pay for the qualifications. Year one coverage will ensure they are not gang banged by employers.
While the industry has you guys and girls in the front line and in total control, us leeches and all the ancilliary people that make it all happen have an even money chance of retaining a semblance of normality. Make it so Captains.
EWL
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Good for you, if I was able to, I would have as well, as I said previously it was not fiscally possible when liabilities exceeded income!
Ergo, you have no excuse. I do not claim to be a better person than you, nor more disciplined. I was pretty much in the same boat. I found the money for union subs, you deployed your meagre resources in other ways.
The cost of union membership to cover a CPL performing single engined VFR work is approximately the cost of paying for a checkout in a C210 to get a job. It is half the cost of purchasing a handheld GPS, and a half to two thirds the cost of equipping yourself with a David Clark headset (forget the ANR).
And as my friend points out, it is a fraction of the money spent on beer etc.
HH, I do know from reading your posts that you are genuinely concerned about the state of the profession. And good on you for putting forward a suggestion.
However, the bit that gets my goat is.... well, let me turn it around for you and maybe you will see what I am driving at.
Lets say your neighbour leans over your fence and starts telling you that you are not spending your money properly on looking after your house. You obviously have a few dollars by the nice suit you wear when you head off to work, and it really behoves you to make an extra contribution to smarten up the streetscape, for the sake of your good neighbours as well as yourself.
I think that you might be tempted to go tell that guy to mind his own business.
What I read from your posts is another classic "why dont they...." from a pilot. Along with that sage advice, which you obviously spent a bit of time thinking over, you admit to a few things...
.....that you are not a union man,
.....your general outlook is heavily influenced by a North American political and social mores that place a lot of faith in the power of corporations to do good, which I am afraid just doesn't bear up in the context of a conservative and short sighted Australian aviation management culture,
.....you have not previously attempted to organise a workforce,
.....you have no experience of formally representing a workforce to an employer,
.....you are unaware of the previous and current IR legislation.
.....you gloss over the foibles, rivalries, jealousies and other all too human traits of the people you think to organise.
First thing that ticks me off --
Now it so happens that I have spent more than a little time trying to generally better the lot of my fellow pilots in those places where I worked.
And I am telling you brother, that your heart might be pure and your intentions good, but you don't know nuthin' until you walk a mile or two in the shoes of a workplace rep/branch committee member.
It doesn't matter if we are talking about a 'contract' grade 3 instructor earning $30/hr while the prop turns, or a senior check captain on a salary of $200k. I have heard all of them come up with excuses for not paying.
There are not many insurance policies that you can buy for yourself that will indemnify you for the loss of an aeroplane on your watch, C182 or B747, plus the people and property in it and underneath it, for only $350 or 1% of your base salary.
I put it to you that that 'cover' is ridiculously cheap. A medical doctor, chartered accountant, etc would love that professional indemnity cover at that price.
So it is not about affordability. It is about whether the pilot 'buys' the idea of being protected, or not. It is closely linked to the mindset of.. I am a good employee, I do what I am told, I know my job, my employer will look after me.... etc.
Fine.
Just don't try and tell me I don't get it. I have been there, I found it hard to find the money, and boy am I glad I did. I haven't put a scratch on an airplane (yet) and I think I am pretty good at my job, but that is no protection in my mind. You never know what is around the corner.
I have fielded panicked phone calls from guys that in all other respects were just like me, but maybe they made a joke about the check and training manager, were being 'set up' by a colleague, had made a bad judgement call at work despite their best efforts. Got an email inbox full of "i was overlooked" "someone else got my slot" "coerced into signing an AWA" "not paid my entitlements" "forced base transfer with no time to relocate family" "facing forced redundancy". Its all there.
Second thing that ticks me off --
Becoming a member is the first step. An important step, but only a first step. A union is not like being in a health fund. You don't pay the minimum dues and turn around and say "gimme."
Unions and employee associations are more like sporting clubs or community associations. All that your dues get you is the right to vote, and participate. A little extra effort is required. It used to be expected, but generation X and Y and all that....
It implies that you at least follow what is going on. And at some stage participate as a base rep, sit on the technical committee, write a paper on issues facing junior members. Go to social functions, meet other members, take on some responsibilities. Become a "pilot friend" in readiness for the day when a boggie 210 pilot needs a hand.
Unions, whether the AFAP, TWU, MUA or SDA, are run on shoestring budgets. There might be some salaried officials, but they are directed by a volunteer committee or board.
So HH, what I am saying there is -- if a bloke cant pass the 'test' of stumping up a few lousy bucks, then what use will he be? The real test is participation. Making it cheaper or free won't change anything.
Third thing that ticks me off ---
Like any AFAP-member pilot that managed to find and stump up the hard earned dollars during the good times and the bad times, and watched his/her union live under a cloud of damages litigation for fifteen years, I am very pleased to see that the federation has not only survived, but has turned the corner and is now in sound financial health and getting stronger. That is down to the hard work and commitment of a handful of pilots that simply believed that australian pilots needed the federation.
It is far from perfect, but it is not the organisation it used to be. The swagger is gone. It is now a much more streetwise organisation that has to pick its battles. It has some superb resources, and most importantly, it has legal recognition within the IR system (ask the National Jet pilot group what that means) and the capability to effect permanent change as a registered industrial organisation, and it knows the industry.
And a neighbour whose armchair attentions have just turned to pilot conditions, that has never paid a dollar in dues, leans over the fence and starts to tell the AFAP how it should collect its dues, how it should spend its money, how it should structure itself?
What answer did you expect?!?
Sprucegoose
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ITCZ,
What a remarkably concise and erudite post, almost don't know where to start with a response!
At the risk of wasting far too much bandwidth, perhaps I will begin by leaving the personalities aside and stating what I know to be true!
-Pilots are under represented in GA!
-In my 7 1/2 years in GA, down the highway, then at the other end of the apron from Hardy's, I never saw a union rep not once!
-As a new joiner to a small regional, still no sign of a rep.
-I had no direct knowledge of the union, nor their benefits, only heresay and second hand (often incorrect) info!
I think Chimbu as he usually does, has hit on the head, Education is the key, but that has to be started somewhere!
Whilst you may not agree with my view, or my politics, do you agree that education and an increase of the union base is required, in order to stop the rot at the higher levels?
If your answer is yes, how do you propose that we achieve it?
PS: I think EWL is definately on the right track!
What a remarkably concise and erudite post, almost don't know where to start with a response!
At the risk of wasting far too much bandwidth, perhaps I will begin by leaving the personalities aside and stating what I know to be true!
-Pilots are under represented in GA!
-In my 7 1/2 years in GA, down the highway, then at the other end of the apron from Hardy's, I never saw a union rep not once!
-As a new joiner to a small regional, still no sign of a rep.
-I had no direct knowledge of the union, nor their benefits, only heresay and second hand (often incorrect) info!
I think Chimbu as he usually does, has hit on the head, Education is the key, but that has to be started somewhere!
Whilst you may not agree with my view, or my politics, do you agree that education and an increase of the union base is required, in order to stop the rot at the higher levels?
If your answer is yes, how do you propose that we achieve it?
PS: I think EWL is definately on the right track!
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Many pilots now working for Qantas or ex Ansett guys now working overseas seem to have forgotten to ever pay back the significant financial assistance they received immediately prior to them crossing picket lines years ago. Maybe they could be prompted to kick in to the admirable idea of a "Free First Year" membership of the AFAP for all new commercial licence holders.
I will totally support this idea of the "Free First Year"....any AFAP Office holders reading this thread?
I will totally support this idea of the "Free First Year"....any AFAP Office holders reading this thread?
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Mentoring & Union Contact
There have been some valuable points made in this thread.
HH's reference to mentoring is very important is terms of establishing new CPLs on an initial career path which includes at least a basic knowledge of what benefits can be accessed through union membership and the risks without it. Also, as has been well pointed out, just how cheap this access and therefore what a sound investment it actually is given the possible (read probable over a whole career) career threatening events that might occur.
QF is finally getting serious about their mentoring program and over time there should be a good model from which to gather the best and most effective ideas for supporting any new pilot anywhere.
Given the typical GA environment for newbies its highly unlikely there will ever be much in the way of mentoring available unless things change. The positive professional relationship which sometimes develops with a more senior pilot isnt what I'm referring to here even though it can involve mentoring. Its formal mentoring which incorporates an agenda of all the pertinent aspects of the CP role that the mentor can bring into play at relevant opportunities through a positive rapport. In this way 'holes' in understanding are minimised.
The challenge is how to do this. I'd argue that with cheap electronic media these days in even the most remote communities, tied in with occasional face to face if only via video link it wouldnt be too hard. An even greater challenge is by who? Here is a perfect opportunity to promote the value of union membership through direct personal support while providing essential mentoring by selected and trained union reps or delegates. If the initial approach to newbies includes first year's free (my personal belief is that strongly subsidised is preferable) membership as evidence of genuine commitment to their professional support then all the better.
HH's reference to mentoring is very important is terms of establishing new CPLs on an initial career path which includes at least a basic knowledge of what benefits can be accessed through union membership and the risks without it. Also, as has been well pointed out, just how cheap this access and therefore what a sound investment it actually is given the possible (read probable over a whole career) career threatening events that might occur.
QF is finally getting serious about their mentoring program and over time there should be a good model from which to gather the best and most effective ideas for supporting any new pilot anywhere.
Given the typical GA environment for newbies its highly unlikely there will ever be much in the way of mentoring available unless things change. The positive professional relationship which sometimes develops with a more senior pilot isnt what I'm referring to here even though it can involve mentoring. Its formal mentoring which incorporates an agenda of all the pertinent aspects of the CP role that the mentor can bring into play at relevant opportunities through a positive rapport. In this way 'holes' in understanding are minimised.
The challenge is how to do this. I'd argue that with cheap electronic media these days in even the most remote communities, tied in with occasional face to face if only via video link it wouldnt be too hard. An even greater challenge is by who? Here is a perfect opportunity to promote the value of union membership through direct personal support while providing essential mentoring by selected and trained union reps or delegates. If the initial approach to newbies includes first year's free (my personal belief is that strongly subsidised is preferable) membership as evidence of genuine commitment to their professional support then all the better.
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Keep posts coming.
It would be good to hear from the union themselves.
..... and its good to hear that people are realising the problems are started in GA and carried up. So we need more representation in the lower levels of GA.
GA companies have it too good for too long. If company x can pay the award then why cant company y???? If they cant afford too then company y can close down and company x can grow.
It would be good to hear from the union themselves.
..... and its good to hear that people are realising the problems are started in GA and carried up. So we need more representation in the lower levels of GA.
GA companies have it too good for too long. If company x can pay the award then why cant company y???? If they cant afford too then company y can close down and company x can grow.
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Charlie - the problems and mongrel conditions that are unloaded on the newbies coming into the industry are transmitted right down the line from GA, regional piston, large regional, turbo prop and onto mainline.
These conditions and the associated mindset leaks out to all the rest of the industry. It could be the dude in Reservations who is in danger of having his or her job outsourced to Hyderabad, or could be the LAME who loses his job to Hoo Flung Dung in Beijing.
This carries on down the line to IT specialists - 2 Indian firms do the IT work for QF now.
Unions are generally useless in this day and time, but what you guys and girls do are the ONLY indespensable part of the indusrtry. What occurs at your coalface impacts everything below right down through engineering, cabin crew, traffic staff, reservations and right down the food chain to us Travel Agents.
Without you they are Edward the Kangaroo - Roo Ted.
It is time to chuck out '89 - shizen happens and produce a front that will overcome the companies ripping a the heart of the industry for short term gain.
There is still enough in this wonderful industry for all of us.
Best all
EWL
These conditions and the associated mindset leaks out to all the rest of the industry. It could be the dude in Reservations who is in danger of having his or her job outsourced to Hyderabad, or could be the LAME who loses his job to Hoo Flung Dung in Beijing.
This carries on down the line to IT specialists - 2 Indian firms do the IT work for QF now.
Unions are generally useless in this day and time, but what you guys and girls do are the ONLY indespensable part of the indusrtry. What occurs at your coalface impacts everything below right down through engineering, cabin crew, traffic staff, reservations and right down the food chain to us Travel Agents.
Without you they are Edward the Kangaroo - Roo Ted.
It is time to chuck out '89 - shizen happens and produce a front that will overcome the companies ripping a the heart of the industry for short term gain.
There is still enough in this wonderful industry for all of us.
Best all
EWL
Last edited by Eastwest Loco; 25th Mar 2007 at 09:59.
Nunc est bibendum
What's the establishment for the RAAF these days PAFie? About 500-600? How many of those are available having completed their ROSO- or whatever they're calling it this year? How many of those who are available having completed their ROSO are 'current' and/or 'suitable'?
I reckon we're down to about half of that 5-600. That meets about half of DJs current establishment with only the remaining 300 for DJ, 2500 QF drivers, and 500(?) J* drivers to go.
I reckon we're down to about half of that 5-600. That meets about half of DJs current establishment with only the remaining 300 for DJ, 2500 QF drivers, and 500(?) J* drivers to go.
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EWL....the thing is about '89 is that it around about marks the difference between a world where there were fully staffed Flight Service Units everywhere...I remember DPO fondly....an well funded very high standard domestic and internional regulatory system, and some great airlines. And, at least from the pilot perspective, a well funded union (AFAP) whose VP Technical could raise hell and get listened to when something bad (e.g. Dick Smith) was happening.
As for the rest of the baggage from that time....well I regularly step over stuff on the footpath....I guess I can keep managing that simple task.
As for the rest of the baggage from that time....well I regularly step over stuff on the footpath....I guess I can keep managing that simple task.
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019360 - You cold not be more correct.
"89 before the meltdown was indeed an happy hunting ground for us all.Good wages - great Airlines and healthy competition despite the alliance between Fats and Bodgie that stalled deregulation so the self lubricating female body part could buy out East West by stealth. All history now.
there is a lot of dookie from that time, but it is held to heart for all the wrong reasons by many.
Eyes are needed back on the ball.
It has all changed and not for the better.
ps: The FSU guys were requested to go have a coffee break on quite a few occasions when an "under the weather" approach was required. They did as requested.
Top bunch of blokes.
You would not like the look of the DPO tower now - top ripped right out of it.
Bad.
EWL
"89 before the meltdown was indeed an happy hunting ground for us all.Good wages - great Airlines and healthy competition despite the alliance between Fats and Bodgie that stalled deregulation so the self lubricating female body part could buy out East West by stealth. All history now.
there is a lot of dookie from that time, but it is held to heart for all the wrong reasons by many.
Eyes are needed back on the ball.
It has all changed and not for the better.
ps: The FSU guys were requested to go have a coffee break on quite a few occasions when an "under the weather" approach was required. They did as requested.
Top bunch of blokes.
You would not like the look of the DPO tower now - top ripped right out of it.
Bad.
EWL
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ITCZ, great post, good points all round. I concur.
I do agree that free membership is not on but I would support a move from the AFAP to offer a reduced percentage from GA pilot members. Anyone that expects/wants something that is in their own interest, for nothing, is not worth having as a member. However a membership fee that is more aligned to one's earnings, is well worth considering.
I do agree that free membership is not on but I would support a move from the AFAP to offer a reduced percentage from GA pilot members. Anyone that expects/wants something that is in their own interest, for nothing, is not worth having as a member. However a membership fee that is more aligned to one's earnings, is well worth considering.
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Somethings gonna give soon...
O.K lets look at Australian aviation from a distance. Things come and go in waves, and usually have 10 - 15 year lapses.
If people in AIPA and AFAP can't smell the fart already... then they must be pretty stupid. Read these forums. All we're hearing are terms like 'T&Cs'... 'EBA'... 'Pilot Shortage'... I'm now reading about pilots taking action; who are prepared to take matters into their own hands.
IMHO, the balls have been bowled but the pins haven't dropped. Howard, I'm backing you up mate.
If it wasn't for us pilots, there wouldn't even be an industry. We are the backbone. Based on this small fact, no matter how much time or money or energy it takes, we should and could keep pushing the fact that we can take action, and nowdays hopefully some of these idiots realize the power we potentially have. I'm so excited about what's going to happen in the next few years.
WWA
O.K lets look at Australian aviation from a distance. Things come and go in waves, and usually have 10 - 15 year lapses.
If people in AIPA and AFAP can't smell the fart already... then they must be pretty stupid. Read these forums. All we're hearing are terms like 'T&Cs'... 'EBA'... 'Pilot Shortage'... I'm now reading about pilots taking action; who are prepared to take matters into their own hands.
IMHO, the balls have been bowled but the pins haven't dropped. Howard, I'm backing you up mate.
If it wasn't for us pilots, there wouldn't even be an industry. We are the backbone. Based on this small fact, no matter how much time or money or energy it takes, we should and could keep pushing the fact that we can take action, and nowdays hopefully some of these idiots realize the power we potentially have. I'm so excited about what's going to happen in the next few years.
WWA
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EWL et al....
How many times did we request the cross wind component at DPO....answer, "What is your limit".....Reply....."22 kts".....answer, "Crosswind is 22 kts".....
Hmmmm.....different times indeed
How many times did we request the cross wind component at DPO....answer, "What is your limit".....Reply....."22 kts".....answer, "Crosswind is 22 kts".....
Hmmmm.....different times indeed
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Yes.....the AFAP union has done a great job of negotiating an award for GA pilots which according to their published GA award in some cases is LESS than minimum wage...
Really inspirational stuff...you can make alot more working as a garbologist
Really inspirational stuff...you can make alot more working as a garbologist
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Yes.....the AFAP union has done a great job of negotiating an award for GA pilots which according to their published GA award in some cases is LESS than minimum wage...
Really inspirational stuff...you can make alot more working as a garbologist
Really inspirational stuff...you can make alot more working as a garbologist
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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Yes.....the AFAP union has done a great job of negotiating an award for GA pilots which according to their published GA award in some cases is LESS than minimum wage...
Would you care to put up a post detailing the cases to which you refer?This is a serious question.
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yeh
On their website.
Pilot's GA award Section 32 - Minimum Salaries.
Clause 32.2.1 Table 2 First Officers/second pilots.
Single Engine UTBNI 1360kg Base Salary $24537
According to the DOCEP website, the minimum wage is $26228 per annum
On their website.
Pilot's GA award Section 32 - Minimum Salaries.
Clause 32.2.1 Table 2 First Officers/second pilots.
Single Engine UTBNI 1360kg Base Salary $24537
According to the DOCEP website, the minimum wage is $26228 per annum
