perth qantas engineering
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Endor
Age: 83
Posts: 320
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think its fairly obvious what the long term objective is - convert everything into salary and get rid of the concept of overtime completely. Thats why the twelve hour shift has to go.
In a heavy maintenance environment this may be a trivial change, but in a line maintenance environment, it means that the costs and risks associated with the uncertainty that is part of the job (ie: Aircraft delayed arriving for maintenance, trouble shooting etc.) is born entirely by the employees.
To put it another way, the company no longer bears the cost of uncertainty or its own poor scheduling as in: "No matter when the aircraft arrives, no matter what the problem, the trained monkeys will fix it before they go home, in return for their standard weekly ration of peanuts".
There is at least one academic theory of management that says managers exist to insulate workers from the day to day uncertainty of business and provide continuity and an orderly business process. It appears to me that Qantas management is basicaly trying to weasel out of the responsibility of managing and scheduling its own maintenance in a cost effective manner - at the expense of its employees.
This is not a win/win situation and is therefore bad (and stupid) management practice.
In a heavy maintenance environment this may be a trivial change, but in a line maintenance environment, it means that the costs and risks associated with the uncertainty that is part of the job (ie: Aircraft delayed arriving for maintenance, trouble shooting etc.) is born entirely by the employees.
To put it another way, the company no longer bears the cost of uncertainty or its own poor scheduling as in: "No matter when the aircraft arrives, no matter what the problem, the trained monkeys will fix it before they go home, in return for their standard weekly ration of peanuts".
There is at least one academic theory of management that says managers exist to insulate workers from the day to day uncertainty of business and provide continuity and an orderly business process. It appears to me that Qantas management is basicaly trying to weasel out of the responsibility of managing and scheduling its own maintenance in a cost effective manner - at the expense of its employees.
This is not a win/win situation and is therefore bad (and stupid) management practice.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ostraaalya
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So i was reading this thread with interest and wasn't going to post until the vitriol spouted by mr fixit. it's 2007 mate. catch up.
Obviously there are a number of different perspectives, and a few of the posters are actually involved on the ground in perth. what i don't understand is this reluctance to change. yeah sure mr fixit, you could have an extended dispute, however lets face it, such a dispute is only going to damage exactly what it is you purport to be protecting: the safety of the travelling public. The 'scabs' you all talk about appear to be trying to protect exactly that. even those referred to by shafted again.
I've never understood personal vilification as a means to secure industrial objectives.
From these posts it seems to be quite a clear issue: the company is trying to change to become more efficient and save this $40mil odd. For some reason this seems offensive to many, even though it is a completely legitimate business objective.
Does it really matter what colour collar someone wears if that's the goal? Surely meeting this target is something that benefits all involved.
Obviously there are a number of different perspectives, and a few of the posters are actually involved on the ground in perth. what i don't understand is this reluctance to change. yeah sure mr fixit, you could have an extended dispute, however lets face it, such a dispute is only going to damage exactly what it is you purport to be protecting: the safety of the travelling public. The 'scabs' you all talk about appear to be trying to protect exactly that. even those referred to by shafted again.
I've never understood personal vilification as a means to secure industrial objectives.
From these posts it seems to be quite a clear issue: the company is trying to change to become more efficient and save this $40mil odd. For some reason this seems offensive to many, even though it is a completely legitimate business objective.
Does it really matter what colour collar someone wears if that's the goal? Surely meeting this target is something that benefits all involved.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Crank - It is good to hear some other opinions and I'm glad you have been reading with interest. It is time to accept change and make the airline even more profitable and some facts about Perth engineering need to be highlighted for all readers.
Qantas have hired the ace team from the US called Seabury to identify savings. They spent 4 months and worked out a 10.9 hour roster could save the airline 1.9m in Perth. The workers exercised their right to refuse the roster and were threatened with an 8 hour roster unless they changed their minds. They didn't and the 8 hour roster was enforced.
The 8 hour roster is undermanned and unsafe levels of staff are working the tarmac. The AIRC requested the union to put together another option. It took them 3 weeks to work out another roster that saved the airline 2.6m per year. The airline won't allow the roster because it would prove that the Seabury nutters don't have the answers and the union do.
Every excuse has been used by management to discredit the union roster. They claim it fails a fatigue risk assessment (even though they have allowed it in Adelaide). They claim that the 8 hour roster hasn't been causing delays yet nearly every plane leaves Perth late.
The scabs are few but when they work they break every rule under the sun to get aircraft turned around. That is what is unsafe here and many reports have gone in. They include -
-pushing aircraft without a headset connected
-aircraft taxying onto bay without marshalling due to lack of staff
-a tarmac being run without supervision
-scabs with mechanical licences signing autopilot defects out of category
-a scab changing an aircraft beacon and fitting one for the wrong aircraft because he is rushing and not working to the manual.
The list goes on and the target the staff have tried to meet has been exceeded by the union roster. This is a management group littered with ex Ansett fools trying to prove that if you fail once, try again until you succeed. The same principles saw the CASA grounding of the Ansett 767 fleet and the collapse of an Australian icon. Lets avoid it happening again.
Qantas have hired the ace team from the US called Seabury to identify savings. They spent 4 months and worked out a 10.9 hour roster could save the airline 1.9m in Perth. The workers exercised their right to refuse the roster and were threatened with an 8 hour roster unless they changed their minds. They didn't and the 8 hour roster was enforced.
The 8 hour roster is undermanned and unsafe levels of staff are working the tarmac. The AIRC requested the union to put together another option. It took them 3 weeks to work out another roster that saved the airline 2.6m per year. The airline won't allow the roster because it would prove that the Seabury nutters don't have the answers and the union do.
Every excuse has been used by management to discredit the union roster. They claim it fails a fatigue risk assessment (even though they have allowed it in Adelaide). They claim that the 8 hour roster hasn't been causing delays yet nearly every plane leaves Perth late.
The scabs are few but when they work they break every rule under the sun to get aircraft turned around. That is what is unsafe here and many reports have gone in. They include -
-pushing aircraft without a headset connected
-aircraft taxying onto bay without marshalling due to lack of staff
-a tarmac being run without supervision
-scabs with mechanical licences signing autopilot defects out of category
-a scab changing an aircraft beacon and fitting one for the wrong aircraft because he is rushing and not working to the manual.
The list goes on and the target the staff have tried to meet has been exceeded by the union roster. This is a management group littered with ex Ansett fools trying to prove that if you fail once, try again until you succeed. The same principles saw the CASA grounding of the Ansett 767 fleet and the collapse of an Australian icon. Lets avoid it happening again.
Last edited by The masked goatrider; 12th Apr 2007 at 21:42.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: OZ
Posts: 580
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Managers perspective.
With your " Ohhhhh Please......................" comment it appears you may not appreciate others opinion.
I for one am still waiting for you to back up your comment you made a page back with some stats or news articles references FACTS etc other than your own opinion.
Managers pespective said
PS If you do manage to track down some positive spin on what you are talking about make sure its a similar industry. I want to see apples compared with apples....
With your " Ohhhhh Please......................" comment it appears you may not appreciate others opinion.
I for one am still waiting for you to back up your comment you made a page back with some stats or news articles references FACTS etc other than your own opinion.
Managers pespective said
I am yet to hear of anyone who is prepared to do a reasonable day's work being unsatisfied being on an AWA.
Seems only those that want to sit back on their butt all day that fear an AWA.
May not be what some want to hear, but facts are facts......
Seems only those that want to sit back on their butt all day that fear an AWA.
May not be what some want to hear, but facts are facts......
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SYDNEY
Posts: 119
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
a push back without having a head set connected,would that not be a cardinal rule broken,my God this is getting beyond a joke WERE THE HELL IS CASA
AS for the dip sh!t manager on this forum,is that the best you can come up with oh please,it seems to me you don't understand processes and procedures and why they are brought about,perhaps it's time you call it a day and go a work for someone like Pizza Hut,hang on a sec they didn't become a world wide business because they cut corners(no pun intended),nor did Qantas this is very disturbing
AS for the dip sh!t manager on this forum,is that the best you can come up with oh please,it seems to me you don't understand processes and procedures and why they are brought about,perhaps it's time you call it a day and go a work for someone like Pizza Hut,hang on a sec they didn't become a world wide business because they cut corners(no pun intended),nor did Qantas this is very disturbing
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 305
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Same old same old more scabs appear from Sydney Base this time to do turnarounds in perth to support M and his cohorts in their "There are no delays in perth or no manpower difficulties" bullsh!t. Also a absolute Ahole from the city of churches flew in to relieve the two Syd base foreman who decided that lies from management could not be stomached any longer and flew out of perth no wishing to return
Pity any of them who finds themselves in trouble,
NO ONE WILL SUPPORT YOU
Pity any of them who finds themselves in trouble,
NO ONE WILL SUPPORT YOU
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Line Maintenance Redundancies
SMH reported today that QF is offering 50 voluntary redundancies to Line Maintenance.
Does this have anything to do with the Perth situation?
Anyone have more information?
Does this have anything to do with the Perth situation?
Anyone have more information?
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: On Uranus
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SMH reported today that QF is offering 50 voluntary redundancies to Line Maintenance.
Does this have anything to do with the Perth situation?
Anyone have more information?
Does this have anything to do with the Perth situation?
Anyone have more information?
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Orstralya
Posts: 352
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As I understand it, the 50 VR's being offered are for Melbourne domestic and international Line Maintenance LAME's. As expected, there is no shortage of volunteers. Who could blame them.
One theory is that this is an attempt to purge the ranks of a lot of the old guys. Leaving a younger generation behind who still have a mortage to pay and kids to put through school. Thus providing management with a work force that is more likely to be persuaded into the management way of thinking. Especially now that the only management negotiating technique is to dangle people's jobs infront of them.
One theory is that this is an attempt to purge the ranks of a lot of the old guys. Leaving a younger generation behind who still have a mortage to pay and kids to put through school. Thus providing management with a work force that is more likely to be persuaded into the management way of thinking. Especially now that the only management negotiating technique is to dangle people's jobs infront of them.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Orstraylia
Posts: 285
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chock chucker
That might be the intention of "M" re. the younger more impressionable workforce to deal with but I think you will find that the most resolve will come from that same said group whether the "older" retirement age staff are gone or not via redundancies.
Being one of the "younger ones with family, mortgage etc" I certainly won't sit back and be pineappled by "M" just so he can gloat to his superiors and recieve his bonus at our expense!
Show me some real facts and figures instead of the rubbery hole filled tripe this Seabury mob and the saviour to all in ACS the Lighthouse group
serve up as evidence and then I and the other ACS staff might become a little bit more engaged in the change process.
Being one of the "younger ones with family, mortgage etc" I certainly won't sit back and be pineappled by "M" just so he can gloat to his superiors and recieve his bonus at our expense!
Show me some real facts and figures instead of the rubbery hole filled tripe this Seabury mob and the saviour to all in ACS the Lighthouse group
serve up as evidence and then I and the other ACS staff might become a little bit more engaged in the change process.
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: in the jungle
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
there have been 48 confirmed applications for VR in mel acs
the big quesstion is whats happening in syd acs - still untouched -or are mangement leaving the best till last - for the big shafting -
the big quesstion is whats happening in syd acs - still untouched -or are mangement leaving the best till last - for the big shafting -
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: australia
Posts: 333
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i guess they must leave syd untill the other ports are sorted out because if the theris problems restrucuring syd who will maintain the a/c if the other ports are in turmoil.
sydney is the jewel where m will make most cost savings
subject to the precint review out soon ???
sydney is the jewel where m will make most cost savings
subject to the precint review out soon ???
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Orstraylia
Posts: 285
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Centre of the universe?
With all due respect domo there are more ports in Aus than just Syd doing scheduled maintenance on the QF fleet.
But point taken, the impact on the QF schedule with turmoil in a non maintenance port versus say turmoil in Syd or Mel for example is very different.
Late departures versus cancelled services due late ex-maintenance repeatedly due to induced inefficiencies (read 8 hour shift/ disengaged staff etc) would get the attention of the board pretty quickly.
I'm sure M attacking the smaller ports first is all part of his demented plan, divide and conquer, thin edge of the wedge etc, etc.
But point taken, the impact on the QF schedule with turmoil in a non maintenance port versus say turmoil in Syd or Mel for example is very different.
Late departures versus cancelled services due late ex-maintenance repeatedly due to induced inefficiencies (read 8 hour shift/ disengaged staff etc) would get the attention of the board pretty quickly.
I'm sure M attacking the smaller ports first is all part of his demented plan, divide and conquer, thin edge of the wedge etc, etc.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 305
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
M is taking aim at another port
MELBOURNE
Break the union's backbone and the deck of cards will fall
That's what his secret document says anyway
Are LAMEs in this port up to the task or will they fall as expected ?
MELBOURNE
Break the union's backbone and the deck of cards will fall
That's what his secret document says anyway
Are LAMEs in this port up to the task or will they fall as expected ?
I've seen a few threads on this Perth situation but no-one has actually said what was wrong with the 10.9hr roster?
How was it going to work? was the base still going to be manned 24hr or have a period with no-one there. Does it need to be manned 24hrs if it wasn't under the new roster?
All that has been said that they would get less money.
How was it going to work? was the base still going to be manned 24hr or have a period with no-one there. Does it need to be manned 24hrs if it wasn't under the new roster?
All that has been said that they would get less money.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: AUS
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
10.9
[LEFT] The 10.9 roster removes all of the conditions of the original 12 hour roster with nothing in return to the perth guys.
20th days (RDO)gone.
Wage average gone.
Effective wage down by an an average of 12-14 grand.
The pinapple wants them to do shift extensions and overtime "äs required" to cover the 1.1 hours to keep a 4 on 4 off roster.
A roster group gave the company a cost effective alternative to the 10.9. A 4 on 5 off roster was rejected outright by the company so the enginners are standing firm continuing on the 8 hour roster.
Make no mistake, the 10.9 roster is about reducing contitions and remuneration and the engineers will not bend.
The only way the current 8 hour still operates is through a couple of DMM's doing massive amounts of overtime and call ins. The helpful S**B's that come over to allow the DMM's to get leave. The brother's that fly over to bail out a/c.
The pinapple with short notice changes individual roster start times to fill holes in his plan on a daily baisis. Sick leave is soaring and leave is being cancelled to keep his grand vision going.
The latest tactic's are :
1. Threatened cancellation of long service leave
2. Cancelling the Malaysian and Royal Brunei enginnering contracts (therefore loss of enginner customer payments)
3. The "open checkbook" for licence training if overtime is done
The ALAEA is back in the comission on friday over the DMM's continuing on the 12 hour 4 on 4 off roster after the extended hour roster agreement has finished in Perth.
20th days (RDO)gone.
Wage average gone.
Effective wage down by an an average of 12-14 grand.
The pinapple wants them to do shift extensions and overtime "äs required" to cover the 1.1 hours to keep a 4 on 4 off roster.
A roster group gave the company a cost effective alternative to the 10.9. A 4 on 5 off roster was rejected outright by the company so the enginners are standing firm continuing on the 8 hour roster.
Make no mistake, the 10.9 roster is about reducing contitions and remuneration and the engineers will not bend.
The only way the current 8 hour still operates is through a couple of DMM's doing massive amounts of overtime and call ins. The helpful S**B's that come over to allow the DMM's to get leave. The brother's that fly over to bail out a/c.
The pinapple with short notice changes individual roster start times to fill holes in his plan on a daily baisis. Sick leave is soaring and leave is being cancelled to keep his grand vision going.
The latest tactic's are :
1. Threatened cancellation of long service leave
2. Cancelling the Malaysian and Royal Brunei enginnering contracts (therefore loss of enginner customer payments)
3. The "open checkbook" for licence training if overtime is done
The ALAEA is back in the comission on friday over the DMM's continuing on the 12 hour 4 on 4 off roster after the extended hour roster agreement has finished in Perth.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hello Kiwiconehead,
Im sure there are a number of issues around the employee rejection of the 10.9 hour roster. You are right though when you say it pays less money.
I think its pretty fair to say that if the average employee was asked to agree on a change to their working conditions that resulted in them earning less money, the employee wouldnt be exactly falling over himself to agree. Especially when an alternative roster can be negotiated that allows a win for all.
I recall a quote from QF management:
"Qantas is comitted to keeping jobs in Australia, but not at any cost."
I believe QF employees could take exactly the same train of thought and apply it to their own situation:
"Employees are committed to keeping their jobs at Qantas, but not at any cost"
That seems to be where it is at the moment...
Im sure there are a number of issues around the employee rejection of the 10.9 hour roster. You are right though when you say it pays less money.
I think its pretty fair to say that if the average employee was asked to agree on a change to their working conditions that resulted in them earning less money, the employee wouldnt be exactly falling over himself to agree. Especially when an alternative roster can be negotiated that allows a win for all.
I recall a quote from QF management:
"Qantas is comitted to keeping jobs in Australia, but not at any cost."
I believe QF employees could take exactly the same train of thought and apply it to their own situation:
"Employees are committed to keeping their jobs at Qantas, but not at any cost"
That seems to be where it is at the moment...