perth qantas engineering
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: n.s.w
Posts: 189
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is there any benefit to QF by them directing DMMs to work 12 hour shifts?
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, I guess the solution is for QF to make up more permanent DMMs to enable them to work the 8 hour shift. That would solve the problem of QF being in contravention of the existing agreements due to directing current DMMs to work 12 hour shifts (when no current extended hours shift agreement is in place).
An alternative would be to make up some extra acting DMMs to cover the 8 hour shift until such times as an extended hours shift agreement is made that satifies both parties.
Does QF even want to make an extended hours shift agreement, or are they happy with the operation running on an 8 hour shift?
An alternative would be to make up some extra acting DMMs to cover the 8 hour shift until such times as an extended hours shift agreement is made that satifies both parties.
Does QF even want to make an extended hours shift agreement, or are they happy with the operation running on an 8 hour shift?
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Perth
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"SCABS reign supremo"
Good on all of you at SIT for sticking to your guns!!!! Unfortunately shake a tree and scabs always seem to drop out. There are 2 DMM's over at the moment from the harbour city as well as a 2 kids trying to fix a fuel leak!!!! BRAVO boys thanks for the assistance!!!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: OZ
Posts: 580
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok 4 DMMs are on a 12 hour roster with no agreement in place.
I have heard that 2 of these DMMs are quite happy to tow the company line while the other 2 are doing as they are told.
Not wanting to go directly against a company directive and perhaps not knowing where they stand. What ever their reason it has ramifications.
If I felt I was being forced to work a shift outside an award or agreement I would want it in writing. Perhaps an email asking clarification directed at all the managers concerned, The union Fed Ex, HR manager of the area and his boss.
If this is put in writing its needs to state reasons, which may or may not stand the test of scrutiny.
If guys at any level start working an extended hour shift pattern that is by way of a directive, management will believe an agreement to work an extended hour shift is not required which will make the whole Perth arguement null and void.
I have heard that 2 of these DMMs are quite happy to tow the company line while the other 2 are doing as they are told.
Not wanting to go directly against a company directive and perhaps not knowing where they stand. What ever their reason it has ramifications.
If I felt I was being forced to work a shift outside an award or agreement I would want it in writing. Perhaps an email asking clarification directed at all the managers concerned, The union Fed Ex, HR manager of the area and his boss.
If this is put in writing its needs to state reasons, which may or may not stand the test of scrutiny.
If guys at any level start working an extended hour shift pattern that is by way of a directive, management will believe an agreement to work an extended hour shift is not required which will make the whole Perth arguement null and void.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: OZ
Posts: 580
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
EPR1.31
If you are going use the scab word, how about you apply it to your own DMMs whom are working outside an agreement. Re my above post.
The guys fixing a fuel leak. I have no idea the details but to have to fly someone over from the east to do maintenance is a win for the Perth guys. Proves the roster you are on has no room for adhoc work.
I am sure some would prefer they not go over (I would not) but to park aircraft on the ground when there is no industrial campaign and when the company has repeatly accused the ALAEA of such it may play into M hands if aircraft are down.
Need to think and work smart
If you are going use the scab word, how about you apply it to your own DMMs whom are working outside an agreement. Re my above post.
The guys fixing a fuel leak. I have no idea the details but to have to fly someone over from the east to do maintenance is a win for the Perth guys. Proves the roster you are on has no room for adhoc work.
I am sure some would prefer they not go over (I would not) but to park aircraft on the ground when there is no industrial campaign and when the company has repeatly accused the ALAEA of such it may play into M hands if aircraft are down.
Need to think and work smart
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Oz
Posts: 466
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would tend to agree with Mr Bolt re sending engineers across the continent to cover for a flawed roster. As long as these blokes are not carrying out reciept/dispatch duties, it just proves that the current roster does not work. This is something that should stand up and shout at not only Big M but his superiors as well.
I think however that we need to understand that the position of Duty Maintenance Manager (DMM) is a management roll and save for a few individuals is an extension of the Big M's iron fist no matter where they are stationed. I would even doubt whether many of them are even members of the association any more, so by working a 12 hour roster they would definatly not perceive any conflict with the rest of the guys, they would not even aknowledge themselves in the same group, they are managers.
I think however that we need to understand that the position of Duty Maintenance Manager (DMM) is a management roll and save for a few individuals is an extension of the Big M's iron fist no matter where they are stationed. I would even doubt whether many of them are even members of the association any more, so by working a 12 hour roster they would definatly not perceive any conflict with the rest of the guys, they would not even aknowledge themselves in the same group, they are managers.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Perth
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bolty
I undestand what you are saying but the only way any of this is going to change is M being pressured from above. The only way that's going to happen is DELAY'S. Anytime scabs come over or the local scabs patch things up it enables M to hide what goes on. As for the local DMM's VERY DISAPOINTING but 8hrs is looming for them too!!!
I undestand what you are saying but the only way any of this is going to change is M being pressured from above. The only way that's going to happen is DELAY'S. Anytime scabs come over or the local scabs patch things up it enables M to hide what goes on. As for the local DMM's VERY DISAPOINTING but 8hrs is looming for them too!!!
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Down Under
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by epr1.31
as well as a 2 kids trying to fix a fuel leak!!!! BRAVO boys thanks for the assistance!!!
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Perth
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hello Nepotism
To clarify the fuel leak was an engine fuel leak! Senior management (above M) only understand delays. I'm not advocating causing them but when a/c breakdown and there is no manpower to action the problem (because of a flawed roster) questions will be asked. If scabs fix the problem it enables M to hide the REAL truth.
To clarify the fuel leak was an engine fuel leak! Senior management (above M) only understand delays. I'm not advocating causing them but when a/c breakdown and there is no manpower to action the problem (because of a flawed roster) questions will be asked. If scabs fix the problem it enables M to hide the REAL truth.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hello Redstone,
As I understand it, the DMM classification and associated conditions are covered by the ALAEA agreements/award. Is that correct?
If so:
Union membership is not compulsory, however, those DMMs that are not members are still covered and bound by the the abovementioned industrial instruments.
Therefore, regardless of whether a DMM is a member of the ALAEA, or if they regard themselves as 'management' , or even if they are, in fact, an extension of Big Ms(?) iron fist, they are obliged to work in accordance with the agreements in place.
If they are found to be doing otherwise, it would not be unreasonable to expect that the Australian Industrial Relations Commission should order them to work in accordance with the agreements in place.
Does the commission have any authority to fine individuals that continue to work contrary to their agreements or in defiance of AIRC orders?
Perhaps the DMM classification should be reviewed. Maybe it should no longer be covered by the ALAEA agreements. If some DMMs consider themselves to be management, perhaps they would be happier by severing all ties with the ALAEA and moving on to individual contracts?
What do you think?
As I understand it, the DMM classification and associated conditions are covered by the ALAEA agreements/award. Is that correct?
If so:
Union membership is not compulsory, however, those DMMs that are not members are still covered and bound by the the abovementioned industrial instruments.
Therefore, regardless of whether a DMM is a member of the ALAEA, or if they regard themselves as 'management' , or even if they are, in fact, an extension of Big Ms(?) iron fist, they are obliged to work in accordance with the agreements in place.
If they are found to be doing otherwise, it would not be unreasonable to expect that the Australian Industrial Relations Commission should order them to work in accordance with the agreements in place.
Does the commission have any authority to fine individuals that continue to work contrary to their agreements or in defiance of AIRC orders?
Perhaps the DMM classification should be reviewed. Maybe it should no longer be covered by the ALAEA agreements. If some DMMs consider themselves to be management, perhaps they would be happier by severing all ties with the ALAEA and moving on to individual contracts?
What do you think?
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sydney
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am yet to hear of anyone who is prepared to do a reasonable day's work being unsatisfied being on an AWA.
Seems only those that want to sit back on their butt all day that fear an AWA.
May not be what some want to hear, but facts are facts......
Seems only those that want to sit back on their butt all day that fear an AWA.
May not be what some want to hear, but facts are facts......
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hello Managers Perspective,
"May not be what some want to hear, but facts are facts......"
What 'facts' are you alluding to?
Your post seemed to be more focussed on supposition and personal opinion than on any basis in fact.
Furthermore, it would seem to me that QF are entirely happy with the current industrial arrangements they have with their employees at the moment. Even if the option was open to QF to move to AWA's, I am very doubtful (in my opinion) that they would take that avenue. EBA's generally provide everything that QF wants, especially since the workplace relations changes and work choices legislation has come through.
"May not be what some want to hear, but facts are facts......"
What 'facts' are you alluding to?
Your post seemed to be more focussed on supposition and personal opinion than on any basis in fact.
Furthermore, it would seem to me that QF are entirely happy with the current industrial arrangements they have with their employees at the moment. Even if the option was open to QF to move to AWA's, I am very doubtful (in my opinion) that they would take that avenue. EBA's generally provide everything that QF wants, especially since the workplace relations changes and work choices legislation has come through.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Here
Posts: 122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If QF wanted to change the DMMs positions would they have to declare the positions redundant and pay out the encumbents, or make them reapply for the new jobs?
That would sort out the men from the boys!
It would appear that the managers perspective is that all of the troops are bludgers. Maybe they dont understand all of the "goodwill" that has accumulated over the years.
When the "goodwill' runs out then, and only then will we see Muzza's brave new world take over.
Mean and hungry LAMEs willing to do what it takes to make a plane fly in the most economical ways possible to the detriment of the long term reliability of the fleet and the confidence of the flying public.
That would sort out the men from the boys!
It would appear that the managers perspective is that all of the troops are bludgers. Maybe they dont understand all of the "goodwill" that has accumulated over the years.
When the "goodwill' runs out then, and only then will we see Muzza's brave new world take over.
Mean and hungry LAMEs willing to do what it takes to make a plane fly in the most economical ways possible to the detriment of the long term reliability of the fleet and the confidence of the flying public.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Oz
Posts: 466
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fantasyland, I think you are probably technicaly right, but as I said their perception is they are not part of the rank and file. In fact years ago the position was re-named/classified from maintenance co-ordinator to duty maintenance manager and it became a non technical position. The very use of the word "manager" in the title! They percieve themselves as being in a management role and therefore must tow the line. It will be interesting to see how the AIRC interpret.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Australia
Age: 54
Posts: 240
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In the true style of a typical manager you have left out an important piece of information.
You neglected to mention that they are prepared to do a reasonable days work for an unreasonable days pay. Reduced penalties conditions etc. This is what managers and the four eyed parasite Howard conveniently neglect to mention.
I am yet to hear of anyone who is prepared to do a reasonable day's work being unsatisfied being on an AWA.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sydney
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Penalties also went out with the Ark, as did meal allowances and taxi vouchers etc.
Pay isn't an issue when you receive performance, have a look at leading AWA's and you will see very high rolled up salaries without all the crud hanging off them.
All that crud needs to be administered, much better share the efficiencies with the employee base.
Me thinks some of you guys need to look outside your bubble.
Pay isn't an issue when you receive performance, have a look at leading AWA's and you will see very high rolled up salaries without all the crud hanging off them.
All that crud needs to be administered, much better share the efficiencies with the employee base.
Me thinks some of you guys need to look outside your bubble.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 305
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
First of all,
To all of Perth Line maint. thank you guys for sticking by your guns Bravo !!!
those of lesser ilk fail to grasp your dedication to the preservation of safety for the flying public.
Scab is a detestable word but adequately describes the individuals who sh!t in their faces, I hope they are named and shamed for all to to see as they do not deserve to wallow in their blood money unknown to all.
99% of QF Engineering is behind you my west coast brothers and our new exec has shown they will not be pushed around by bully boys any longer.
The 1% that has no regard for the present or future of QF Engineering I hope you burn in hell with all your scab retard friends.
Only Base Maint. (Sydney Eng for the unitiated) is the breeding ground for such filth, these LAMEs only think of themselves and should be made examples of, the Foremen that are taking blood money have come from Base, DRW and BNE. To those bases deal with these pathetic individuals as required as you are being tarred with their brush and tar doesn't wash off.
One in particular from BNE showed his ineptness for correct maintenance when he despatched an aircraft with a Emerg. beacon assigned to another aircraft (the idiot was unaware of this) this is now being investigated by CASA and the ATSB as a major safety breech. Oh and by the way this will be the second time he has fallen foul of the authorities the last time was for falsifying CASA documents.
8 Hour roster - Bring it on in Melbourne they will teach them a lesson they will unlikely forget, the last time someone thought they were bigger than the machine he was left with anxiety attacks and a call centre job in Mumbai.
Perth took the baton and ran with it straight into the gates of hell, Brave men who looked the Fat demon in the eye and spat in it. It is now time to pass it off to the dogs of war from the east and they will feast on the carcasses of the arrogant.
If the 8 hour comes to Melbourne, Heads will roll to be sure, to be sure
Be wary of the monster that lies within every decent man, once awakened it may never sleep again.
To all of Perth Line maint. thank you guys for sticking by your guns Bravo !!!
those of lesser ilk fail to grasp your dedication to the preservation of safety for the flying public.Scab is a detestable word but adequately describes the individuals who sh!t in their faces, I hope they are named and shamed for all to to see as they do not deserve to wallow in their blood money unknown to all.
99% of QF Engineering is behind you my west coast brothers and our new exec has shown they will not be pushed around by bully boys any longer.
The 1% that has no regard for the present or future of QF Engineering I hope you burn in hell with all your scab retard friends.
Only Base Maint. (Sydney Eng for the unitiated) is the breeding ground for such filth, these LAMEs only think of themselves and should be made examples of, the Foremen that are taking blood money have come from Base, DRW and BNE. To those bases deal with these pathetic individuals as required as you are being tarred with their brush and tar doesn't wash off.
One in particular from BNE showed his ineptness for correct maintenance when he despatched an aircraft with a Emerg. beacon assigned to another aircraft (the idiot was unaware of this) this is now being investigated by CASA and the ATSB as a major safety breech. Oh and by the way this will be the second time he has fallen foul of the authorities the last time was for falsifying CASA documents.
8 Hour roster - Bring it on in Melbourne they will teach them a lesson they will unlikely forget, the last time someone thought they were bigger than the machine he was left with anxiety attacks and a call centre job in Mumbai.
Perth took the baton and ran with it straight into the gates of hell, Brave men who looked the Fat demon in the eye and spat in it. It is now time to pass it off to the dogs of war from the east and they will feast on the carcasses of the arrogant.
If the 8 hour comes to Melbourne, Heads will roll to be sure, to be sure
Be wary of the monster that lies within every decent man, once awakened it may never sleep again.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: london
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Clarity
Let's take a minute to set a few things straight. Firstly this is about the bottom line, saving dollars, $42 million to be precise, not what's best for the workforce, 'M' is only interested in a 10.9 hour shift in Perth, as this will eliminate the rostered overtime payment, reduce shift penalties by 8% and remove the flexible 'Z' day. Although a working group was agreed upon to develop alternate rosters and in fact presented a superior 12 hour shift, that delivered on cost savings, manpower requirements and license coverage, this has been rejected outright by 'M', citing a lame excuse about fatigue scores which has since been disproved, hence, and I quote "I've gone too far down the 10.9 path now to turn back", in other words, making promises to DC that he just can't keep. Even then 'M' was able to keep his poker face when telling the AIRC that extended rosters where off the table in Perth, not minutes after offering the 10.9 olive branch to Union delegates! So with 'M' desperatly trying not to back peddle and save face with the board, a local manager whom finds it impossible to be civil to, let alone be constructive with his workforce, Perth has reached a stalemate.
Which eludes to the question, why would 'M' want to make an example of Perth? After all, 12 months ago, all the other ACS Line Stations were being asked why they couldn't operate in the same manner. Domestic and International Operations combined, LAME's carring out the work of storemen and ground equipment mechanics at night, no demarcation between trades, a positive 'can do attitude'....... why put all this at risk? The reason is simple, this is NOT about just Perth.... Brisbane, Adelaide (don't think you'll keep your 4x5), Sydney and Melbourne you're next!!! Perth is the smallest and remotest port, a classic case of Qantas divide and conquer. Who cares when Perth LAME's are forced to work a soul destroying, morale sapping, fatigue inducing, unrewarding 8 hour shift........not the four gentlemen from Sydney, two from Brisbane or our friend from Darwin, who jet in to "make things happen" (or in the case of the 767 fuel pump change, totally f**k it up!). After all, the LAME's didn't even flinch when a whole Maintenence division was shutdown in Sydney, who'll worry about that lot all the way over there in the west, well you will!!! This truly is the thin end of M's preverbial wedge which reaches australia wide but again, as in his own words "I'll keep driving the machine until it breaks" he's only doing as he promised. Unfortunatly for the whole of ACS Engineering, that machine is still trundling along, thanks in no small way to the professionalism of Perth LAMEs. There is also the matter of a couple DMM's and DMM wannabees who have been tirelessly carrying out the duties of Supervisor, Leading Hand, certifying LAME and outstation hero, not to mention the much debated first point of contact in an emergency (difficult when you yourself are pushing back an aircraft, mobile phone, intrinsicly safe radio or not). Which by the way, the Airport Emergency Services refused to do. Whilst all the time feeling quite fatigued due to the copious amounts of overtime they've been forced to work......obviously the money has nothing to do with it! This of course could all end in the AIRC later this month, when the DMMs may be instructed to join their 'workmates' on the 8 hour roster........enjoy!
In their defence, the DMM's were all served notice from Qantas IR, that any deviation from their 12 hour, 4 on 4 off roster would constitute a breach of the work place relations act, for which they would be held accountable, fancy being forced to have four days off(better do some O/T)!!!!
All in all, this situation has descended into a farce, although, I can steadfastly say that Perth LAME's will NOT be caving in to the 10.9 and will remain committed, with or without the total support our 'brothers' around the country. For those of you who can see through the smoke and have knocked back the lure of a weekend in the west, thanks.
As for 'M', if your new contract depends on you delivering on your $42 million promise, I guess LAMEs in Perth will be working a Qantas 8 hour shift for a lot longer than you will be!
One last point, blue collar or white collar, you're only going to be treated in one way by this company unless you're management and that is as the number they assigned you when you joined!
Which eludes to the question, why would 'M' want to make an example of Perth? After all, 12 months ago, all the other ACS Line Stations were being asked why they couldn't operate in the same manner. Domestic and International Operations combined, LAME's carring out the work of storemen and ground equipment mechanics at night, no demarcation between trades, a positive 'can do attitude'....... why put all this at risk? The reason is simple, this is NOT about just Perth.... Brisbane, Adelaide (don't think you'll keep your 4x5), Sydney and Melbourne you're next!!! Perth is the smallest and remotest port, a classic case of Qantas divide and conquer. Who cares when Perth LAME's are forced to work a soul destroying, morale sapping, fatigue inducing, unrewarding 8 hour shift........not the four gentlemen from Sydney, two from Brisbane or our friend from Darwin, who jet in to "make things happen" (or in the case of the 767 fuel pump change, totally f**k it up!). After all, the LAME's didn't even flinch when a whole Maintenence division was shutdown in Sydney, who'll worry about that lot all the way over there in the west, well you will!!! This truly is the thin end of M's preverbial wedge which reaches australia wide but again, as in his own words "I'll keep driving the machine until it breaks" he's only doing as he promised. Unfortunatly for the whole of ACS Engineering, that machine is still trundling along, thanks in no small way to the professionalism of Perth LAMEs. There is also the matter of a couple DMM's and DMM wannabees who have been tirelessly carrying out the duties of Supervisor, Leading Hand, certifying LAME and outstation hero, not to mention the much debated first point of contact in an emergency (difficult when you yourself are pushing back an aircraft, mobile phone, intrinsicly safe radio or not). Which by the way, the Airport Emergency Services refused to do. Whilst all the time feeling quite fatigued due to the copious amounts of overtime they've been forced to work......obviously the money has nothing to do with it! This of course could all end in the AIRC later this month, when the DMMs may be instructed to join their 'workmates' on the 8 hour roster........enjoy!
In their defence, the DMM's were all served notice from Qantas IR, that any deviation from their 12 hour, 4 on 4 off roster would constitute a breach of the work place relations act, for which they would be held accountable, fancy being forced to have four days off(better do some O/T)!!!!
All in all, this situation has descended into a farce, although, I can steadfastly say that Perth LAME's will NOT be caving in to the 10.9 and will remain committed, with or without the total support our 'brothers' around the country. For those of you who can see through the smoke and have knocked back the lure of a weekend in the west, thanks.
As for 'M', if your new contract depends on you delivering on your $42 million promise, I guess LAMEs in Perth will be working a Qantas 8 hour shift for a lot longer than you will be!
One last point, blue collar or white collar, you're only going to be treated in one way by this company unless you're management and that is as the number they assigned you when you joined!
