Exodus from Skippers (Merged)
Ahh I wouldn't be so quick on that one Aircraft. I have no inside information however it would not be beyond the realms of possibility that the mining companies are subsidising the extra costs.
Skippers situation is a classic example of supply and demand that you often seem to crap on about on these forums. At the current labour price there ain't enough people, so therefore the price needs to increase to stimulate the supply.
On saying that I would be suprised if it happened though
Skippers situation is a classic example of supply and demand that you often seem to crap on about on these forums. At the current labour price there ain't enough people, so therefore the price needs to increase to stimulate the supply.
On saying that I would be suprised if it happened though
When are you guys going to wake up to the true nature of your own industry?
I know you're a troll aircraft, but there's no need ot be a stupid one!!
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Winning by Losing
A troll's main goal is usually to arouse anger and frustration among the message board's other participants, and will write whatever it takes to achieve this end. One popular trolling strategy is the practice of Winning by Losing. While the victim is trying to put forward solid and convincing facts to prove his position, the troll's only goal is to infuriate its prey. The troll takes (what it knows to be) a badly flawed, wholly illogical argument, and then vigorously defends it while mocking and insulting its prey. The troll looks like a complete fool, but this is all part of the plan. The victim becomes noticeably angry by trying to repeatedly explain the flaws of the troll's argument. Provoking this anger was the troll's one and only goal from the very beginning.
Winning by Losing
Conclusively proven. There appears to be a serious mental defect located somewhere between the keyboard and the chair.
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Just perused a friends new AWA.
In my opinion, not the great gift it would appear, many extra conditions that i personally would not have accepted, including 3 months notice of resignation or pay the organisation in lieu, in addition to paying out ones bond .
Perhaps you guys should have this one read very carefully by an IR lawyer or Union rep.
Good luck.
In my opinion, not the great gift it would appear, many extra conditions that i personally would not have accepted, including 3 months notice of resignation or pay the organisation in lieu, in addition to paying out ones bond .
Perhaps you guys should have this one read very carefully by an IR lawyer or Union rep.
Good luck.
Yesssssss, I heard some new AWAs were sent out, and the amounts touted were $75k for a metro and between 90k-104k for the braz and dash 8s.
Close the gate, the horse has bolted!
Close the gate, the horse has bolted!
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I think you will also find that the rates of salary quoted are inclusive of the 9% superannuation.
eg: approx 68k plus super = 75k for the Metro.
Oh well, at least they have raised the salaries which is a good start. Will be interesting to see what the other charter companies on the field do.
eg: approx 68k plus super = 75k for the Metro.
Oh well, at least they have raised the salaries which is a good start. Will be interesting to see what the other charter companies on the field do.
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It will be interesting to see how many actually sign this AWA in its present form.
It is very positive that the company is offering staff a higher salary, it is a move that will probably ensure their survival in this looming "pilot shortage", well done on that front.
Hopefully they will be willing to negotiate the finer details with their staff, both parties will probably have a win ( I would imagine most will be happy with the money offered, just not some of the conditions that have been presented ).
Perhaps a Pilot/Management meeting over a couple of beers on friday arvo could abate concerns of both parties.
What would be the outcome, if a majority of the Pilots asked a Union to represent them in this ( NJS Pilots are seeing positive action and sustainable change on the way ).
It is very positive that the company is offering staff a higher salary, it is a move that will probably ensure their survival in this looming "pilot shortage", well done on that front.
Hopefully they will be willing to negotiate the finer details with their staff, both parties will probably have a win ( I would imagine most will be happy with the money offered, just not some of the conditions that have been presented ).
Perhaps a Pilot/Management meeting over a couple of beers on friday arvo could abate concerns of both parties.
What would be the outcome, if a majority of the Pilots asked a Union to represent them in this ( NJS Pilots are seeing positive action and sustainable change on the way ).
I have now seen the relevant job ad in the Australian. For those that haven't, Skippers are offering "remuneration rates commencing at $95K for Dash 8 and Brasilia captains and $75K for Metro". The ad also states that these salaries are dependent on experience and qualifications (so whether that means the quoted figures are the minimum or the maximum is unclear).
My earlier post regarding salaries of this magnitude being impossible was based on the job having "conventional" terms and conditions.
But for salaries like this, I think you will find that the offer contains some decidedly unconventional terms and conditions!
Some supporting evidence for my earlier post is contained in this quote from the recent Geoffrey Thomas article that was posted to another thread by freddyKrueger:
Sure, the mining industry has the money to fund contracts that could, by themselves, pay these kinds of salaries, but why would some mining company enter into such a contract with an operator that runs clapped out old turboprops? If the contract is for traditional FIFO, they could get a different operator, more cheaply, but for the same level of safety.
Mining companies are finding it harder to attract their own employees in the current boom. One way to attract them is via added safety measures that apply to the FIFO flights. Pilot salaries are not visible to the workers but the interiors and exteriors of the clapped out old turboprops are. If you were a mining company wouldn't you rather be spending the extra money on visible safety features?
My earlier post regarding salaries of this magnitude being impossible was based on the job having "conventional" terms and conditions.
But for salaries like this, I think you will find that the offer contains some decidedly unconventional terms and conditions!
Some supporting evidence for my earlier post is contained in this quote from the recent Geoffrey Thomas article that was posted to another thread by freddyKrueger:
But while the airline industry is vibrant, it is under enormous cost pressures as the resource industry plays off up to nine players: Qantas, QantasLink, Skywest, NJS, Alliance Airlines, OZ-jet, Virgin Blue, Network Aviation and Skippers Aviation.
Mining companies are finding it harder to attract their own employees in the current boom. One way to attract them is via added safety measures that apply to the FIFO flights. Pilot salaries are not visible to the workers but the interiors and exteriors of the clapped out old turboprops are. If you were a mining company wouldn't you rather be spending the extra money on visible safety features?
Well done aircraft! You can start by getting these mining companies to stop flying around 35 year old PA31s/C402s and put their employees into a nice new single engine turbine!!! Why hasn't anyone else thought of that? 
If I'm correct, some of those "clapped out turboprops" that are flown by Network in fact belong to some of their mining clients. It isn't like all the jet aircraft being flown around WA are spring chickens. I'm not going to get into how many times I've seen interior and exterior refurbishments on the turboprop fleet based in Perth over the past four years.
Yep, winning by losing, aircraft.
If I'm correct, some of those "clapped out turboprops" that are flown by Network in fact belong to some of their mining clients. It isn't like all the jet aircraft being flown around WA are spring chickens. I'm not going to get into how many times I've seen interior and exterior refurbishments on the turboprop fleet based in Perth over the past four years.
Yep, winning by losing, aircraft.
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here's an additional thought,
From my memory i believe most of the FIFO also required certain experience levels of crews as well....
I'm sure now that the experience levels have dropped far below what was or is required... i wonder if these companies are aware of the severe drop in crew experience...? (let alone age and conditions of aircraft)
just another couple of cents tossed in...
From my memory i believe most of the FIFO also required certain experience levels of crews as well....
I'm sure now that the experience levels have dropped far below what was or is required... i wonder if these companies are aware of the severe drop in crew experience...? (let alone age and conditions of aircraft)
just another couple of cents tossed in...
Chr!st!
Here we go again.
OK, we'll offer you a pay rise but only because we care....
and by the way, just leave your first born on the chair on the way out.
While companys continue to play the "what are you going to offer us in return" game, the smart players, (mind you haven't seen too many so far), will pinch what is left of their drivers by offering real incentives, without the strings.
Every 2 or 3 years we go cap in hand to these clowns and literally beg for a CPI wage rise! We have never even come close to that small and obvious right, without sacrificing conditions. 10 years of one sided "negotiations" has led us to the place we are today. Crap wages and crap conditions. For that very reason, suitably qualified pilots are becoming difficult to attract, and even more difficult to keep.
Yet these blokes (management types) still try to bung it on!!!
Well all I can say is, keep up the brinkmanship, the stall tactics, and all the strings attached, and your business will pay the price.
Here we go again.
OK, we'll offer you a pay rise but only because we care....
and by the way, just leave your first born on the chair on the way out.
While companys continue to play the "what are you going to offer us in return" game, the smart players, (mind you haven't seen too many so far), will pinch what is left of their drivers by offering real incentives, without the strings.
Every 2 or 3 years we go cap in hand to these clowns and literally beg for a CPI wage rise! We have never even come close to that small and obvious right, without sacrificing conditions. 10 years of one sided "negotiations" has led us to the place we are today. Crap wages and crap conditions. For that very reason, suitably qualified pilots are becoming difficult to attract, and even more difficult to keep.
Yet these blokes (management types) still try to bung it on!!!
Well all I can say is, keep up the brinkmanship, the stall tactics, and all the strings attached, and your business will pay the price.
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aircraft,
The majority of mining companies conduct extensive audits of operators. These audits address everything from the asthetics of the aircraft to the operating culture among the crew. I can think of one lucrative northern Australian contract in particular; The contract was awarded to a company with older aircraft (and less comfortable). Said operator however, had a wealth of experience in its ranks and a sound operational safety culture, which is usually bred out of a motivated, satisfied workforce. All offers on the table were similarly quoted, so its safe to assume the decision wasn't price driven.
What am I getting at?
"for the same level of safety" bollocks. Operational safety, and since we are talking about pilots here I am referring to everything from training to CRM, is directly affected by engagement, experience and training. Both of these are negatively impacted when conditions are below industry climate average (as the case has been with Skippers recently). Simply put, the experience in a company that cuts corners, is drained, training is abreviated and a cowboy operating culture can squeeze its way in.
To assume the mining companies don't give a damn is foolish. One audit, once incident is all it takes.
If the contract is for traditional FIFO, they could get a different operator, more cheaply, but for the same level of safety.
What am I getting at?
"for the same level of safety" bollocks. Operational safety, and since we are talking about pilots here I am referring to everything from training to CRM, is directly affected by engagement, experience and training. Both of these are negatively impacted when conditions are below industry climate average (as the case has been with Skippers recently). Simply put, the experience in a company that cuts corners, is drained, training is abreviated and a cowboy operating culture can squeeze its way in.
To assume the mining companies don't give a damn is foolish. One audit, once incident is all it takes.
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one incident is all it takes..
you'd like to think so p.s from what i hear the audit company a lot of the mines use aren't worth two... speaking to some people who have delt with them they don't look under to many rocks when they visit...
any how....!
SP
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I have rung around to settle my curiosity on this offer from Skippers (lack thereof) and have come to the conclusion that it is just a polished turd!
A pretty poor attempt to keep pilots. They have only offered this ‘deal’ because they are down to 5 Bras Capts for 6 planes and 3 Metro Capts for 6 planes (from the same source). All those who resigned are still leaving! The clients are pissed.
95k for the Dash and Bras is false advertising.
95k minus 9% Super = 86.45k
86.45k minus 3 months notice (say 2, 1 month is standard) 14.41k = 72.04k
72k. Isn’t that close to what the Dash guys are on anyway?
72.04k minus up to 25k bond (and you are bonded even if your type rated!!!) = 47.04
Now for $47,000 you get to be a Capt on a Dash or Bras working max duty in a company with low morale with the normal bonds and notice applied. Great work of art this document is.
I can’t believe I’m about to do this but I agree with aircraft on this
But he/she didn’t mention this from the same article
Such management arrogance is astounding in the current climate. People will still vote with their feet.
A pretty poor attempt to keep pilots. They have only offered this ‘deal’ because they are down to 5 Bras Capts for 6 planes and 3 Metro Capts for 6 planes (from the same source). All those who resigned are still leaving! The clients are pissed.
95k for the Dash and Bras is false advertising.
95k minus 9% Super = 86.45k
86.45k minus 3 months notice (say 2, 1 month is standard) 14.41k = 72.04k
72k. Isn’t that close to what the Dash guys are on anyway?
72.04k minus up to 25k bond (and you are bonded even if your type rated!!!) = 47.04
Now for $47,000 you get to be a Capt on a Dash or Bras working max duty in a company with low morale with the normal bonds and notice applied. Great work of art this document is.
I can’t believe I’m about to do this but I agree with aircraft on this
I think you will find that the offer contains some decidedly unconventional terms and conditions!
The massive disruption of a potential pilots strike has sent shudders through mine sites. With the FIFO aircraft as important as Christmas at home and with a raft of contracts up for renewal in the next 12 months, industrial harmony will take precedence over price.
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from what i hear the audit company a lot of the mines use aren't worth two.......
I have been personally ( as the CP/DCP ) audited three times by Harts, these guys are very good at what they do, their audits are exceptionally thorough and pick up on issues i thought would be beyond their abilities for a two or three day audit.
IMHO BHP and the like are spending their money very wisely with Harts as their aviation representatives.
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Erin and others.
If it's been mentioned before please forgive me as I have not read every post on this thread.Erin you mentioned the clients being pissed in a previous post.Surely making the guy's at the top of the mining tree aware personally why flights are getting canned would have to make a difference.The amounts of money involved for them when a flight cannot operate and they can't bring in a shift change must be staggering. I can't believe they would stand for this sort of mismanagement when they pay their staff the money they do to ensure that they don;t have these sorts of problems.
Anyway, good luck to you guy's at Skippers !
If it's been mentioned before please forgive me as I have not read every post on this thread.Erin you mentioned the clients being pissed in a previous post.Surely making the guy's at the top of the mining tree aware personally why flights are getting canned would have to make a difference.The amounts of money involved for them when a flight cannot operate and they can't bring in a shift change must be staggering. I can't believe they would stand for this sort of mismanagement when they pay their staff the money they do to ensure that they don;t have these sorts of problems.
Anyway, good luck to you guy's at Skippers !
KRUSTY 34:
Actually, that would be zero "smart players", going on your definition. Leaving aside the question of how you would know what the "smart players" are doing when there aren't any, what does it tell you - that, according to your definition, there aren't any "smart players"?
Err, where did you get the idea that this is a right? This may come as an awful shock, but we have no such right.
If more people realised this there would be less rancour over terms and conditions. And if they also understood the true nature of commercial aviation the level of rancour would be approaching zero!
While companys continue to play the "what are you going to offer us in return" game, the smart players, (mind you haven't seen too many so far), ...
Every 2 or 3 years we go cap in hand to these clowns and literally beg for a CPI wage rise! We have never even come close to that small and obvious right ...
If more people realised this there would be less rancour over terms and conditions. And if they also understood the true nature of commercial aviation the level of rancour would be approaching zero!
