VB Embraer Operation
Well said Stick Pusher.
A little bird in DJ informs me that the lights are burning late in the Kremlin on that very question.
Evidently the 737 F/O's slated for command on the EJ may leave a severe experience gap in the right seats of the 737 operation. This has been hilighted by the problems some new and less experienced guys have been having adjusting to the operation.
Then there is the problem with the EJ EBA? What EBA? With the voting down of the new proposed DJ agreement, the introduction of the Embraer may be in trouble on 2 fronts, Operationally and Industrially!
A little bird in DJ informs me that the lights are burning late in the Kremlin on that very question.
Evidently the 737 F/O's slated for command on the EJ may leave a severe experience gap in the right seats of the 737 operation. This has been hilighted by the problems some new and less experienced guys have been having adjusting to the operation.
Then there is the problem with the EJ EBA? What EBA? With the voting down of the new proposed DJ agreement, the introduction of the Embraer may be in trouble on 2 fronts, Operationally and Industrially!
tell me this 14 aircraft = 140 pilots....... from where?
Round numbers.. 10 pilots - 5 crews per airframe.
Would the E jet have the same crewing requirements? If so I am going to set up my deckchair and open a stubby because this is going to be bloody entertaining.
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Don't any of you guys want a job? There seems to be an incredible amount of negativity surrounding the intro of the E's. I've worked regional in the UK and long haul and I can tell you this job would be a bloody walk in the park compared to both of them. Roll on the E Jets I say. Small fuel tanks = more time on the ground= happy life
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If you are a 737 driver and want to return to OZ, now is your opportunity.
Word on the street is that 737 rated pilots are as scarse as the sim time available to train newbies.
Crikey if I was a lowish houred regional driver I would say the next 18 mths look bloody fantastic.
The there is the EBA issue, for another day.
Word on the street is that 737 rated pilots are as scarse as the sim time available to train newbies.
Crikey if I was a lowish houred regional driver I would say the next 18 mths look bloody fantastic.
The there is the EBA issue, for another day.
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DJ
Slightly confused so have to ask:
initially you are saying "great time for expat 737 drivers to return to OZ", however anyone overseas endorsed on 737 is probably looking at a future in remuneration (if nothing else) that DJ and others in OZ refuse to acknowlwdge.
Of course I am assuming you refer to F/O slots - or are you suggesting that DEC slots will be available?? jeez
that'll make the bottom half of the "seniotity list" impressed!
Finally I am sure there will be enough who are willing to pay their endorsements - well and truely part of the Australian aviation environment these days, more so when McBank take over QF and acts, "in the interests of their shareholders", to recoup their investment quicktime ).
After my small s*itstir a serious note - there is a concerted effort around the world (however I refer in this instance more to Asia-Pacific) to continually lower requirements to try to ensure a suitable "pool" of canditates for positions from either the airlines/and or the contract agencies.
Will this ongoing lowering requirements ever hit bottom (ie maybe serious incidents or accidents which will bring this to public attention) or will "advances in aircraft technology", whatever they may be, offset this decline in qualifications/experience/standards??
Discuss!!
Slightly confused so have to ask:
initially you are saying "great time for expat 737 drivers to return to OZ", however anyone overseas endorsed on 737 is probably looking at a future in remuneration (if nothing else) that DJ and others in OZ refuse to acknowlwdge.
Of course I am assuming you refer to F/O slots - or are you suggesting that DEC slots will be available?? jeez
that'll make the bottom half of the "seniotity list" impressed!Finally I am sure there will be enough who are willing to pay their endorsements - well and truely part of the Australian aviation environment these days, more so when McBank take over QF and acts, "in the interests of their shareholders", to recoup their investment quicktime
).After my small s*itstir a serious note - there is a concerted effort around the world (however I refer in this instance more to Asia-Pacific) to continually lower requirements to try to ensure a suitable "pool" of canditates for positions from either the airlines/and or the contract agencies.
Will this ongoing lowering requirements ever hit bottom (ie maybe serious incidents or accidents which will bring this to public attention) or will "advances in aircraft technology", whatever they may be, offset this decline in qualifications/experience/standards??
Discuss!!
galdian, I'll have a go,
It's becoming obvious that operators will have to lower their requirements to fill their need for new blood. There's ample evidence of this occuring already. The problem as I see it is not so much the reduced experience level of the candidate, but the way in which an increasing number of operators induct them.
Not that long ago, 15 to 20 years I suppose, 1,000 hours GA multi-command and you were off to the airlines. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think Qantas mins are still around the 500 mark. Prior to this a large part of QF recruitment was by way of the cadet scheme. Why then did the majority of these candidates go on to successful careers?
Why? Because from day one you were a part of the organisation. You were endorsed in house and supervised, encouraged, and supported every step of the way. At the end of your training you had been exposed to the priceless wealth of experience of a large professional airline and it's training department.
So what happens today? You are required to be in possesion of the appropriate type rating prior to being accepted for employment. So for the candidate without previous type experience, their initial training on type is not as a probationary employee, but as a client to whatever company is providing the endorsement.
For an experienced 5-10K hour pilot, this may or may not present a serious problem, but for a greenhorn you would have to ask, are they being properly equipped to meet the challenges of their line training and future line flying situations?
As for technology off-setting low experience levels, people have been manageing to screw up in even the most advanced machines for some years now, and usually by quite experienced pilots. In the aftermath of these events, quite often the focus is on systemic failures and the "culture" of the company invloved!
Mabye our brave new world LCC's need to re-invent the wheel and take greater responsibility for their future investment.
I won't however, be holding my breath.
It's becoming obvious that operators will have to lower their requirements to fill their need for new blood. There's ample evidence of this occuring already. The problem as I see it is not so much the reduced experience level of the candidate, but the way in which an increasing number of operators induct them.
Not that long ago, 15 to 20 years I suppose, 1,000 hours GA multi-command and you were off to the airlines. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think Qantas mins are still around the 500 mark. Prior to this a large part of QF recruitment was by way of the cadet scheme. Why then did the majority of these candidates go on to successful careers?
Why? Because from day one you were a part of the organisation. You were endorsed in house and supervised, encouraged, and supported every step of the way. At the end of your training you had been exposed to the priceless wealth of experience of a large professional airline and it's training department.
So what happens today? You are required to be in possesion of the appropriate type rating prior to being accepted for employment. So for the candidate without previous type experience, their initial training on type is not as a probationary employee, but as a client to whatever company is providing the endorsement.
For an experienced 5-10K hour pilot, this may or may not present a serious problem, but for a greenhorn you would have to ask, are they being properly equipped to meet the challenges of their line training and future line flying situations?
As for technology off-setting low experience levels, people have been manageing to screw up in even the most advanced machines for some years now, and usually by quite experienced pilots. In the aftermath of these events, quite often the focus is on systemic failures and the "culture" of the company invloved!
Mabye our brave new world LCC's need to re-invent the wheel and take greater responsibility for their future investment.
I won't however, be holding my breath.
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There is a flood of pilots over here in the UK that would love to return back to AUS but some are prevented from applying due to the minimum requirements. Take me for example.
4000 tt
1000 turboprop FO
1500 Airbus/737 FO
1500 Instrutor Time
I can't apply because of the requirement for 500 pic multiengine time, without going into the rights or wrongs of this I know that a lot of blokes over here in the UK are in a similar situation as myself because time to command at my current company is 10-15 years so will be unlikely to ever meet the minimum entry requirement. Tough luck really, just would'nt worry to much about the flood of expats.
4000 tt
1000 turboprop FO
1500 Airbus/737 FO
1500 Instrutor Time
I can't apply because of the requirement for 500 pic multiengine time, without going into the rights or wrongs of this I know that a lot of blokes over here in the UK are in a similar situation as myself because time to command at my current company is 10-15 years so will be unlikely to ever meet the minimum entry requirement. Tough luck really, just would'nt worry to much about the flood of expats.
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Krusty
Thanks for taking the time - your thinking is exactly the same as mine regarding the wealth of overall training provided by the "legacy" carriers Vs the "just tick the box" attitude by the management (not necessarily the Flight Department) of the likes of VB and Pornstar.
VB lucked by grabbing a whole group of "legacy" trained F/O's who rapidly (and successfully) did upgrades, Pornstar is heavily dominated by a Flight Ops from the same "legacy" background (for better or worse, not getting in to THAT slinging match
.)
It will be interesting to see how things progress in the future as the benefits of "legacy" carriers is diminished through natural attrition and the "just tick the box" attitude of modern day LCC management becomes dominant.
Personally I cannot see it in anyway being a step forward in safety and standards - however have been known to be wrong once or twice in the past, maybe wrong now! (but I don't think so.)
Thanks for taking the time - your thinking is exactly the same as mine regarding the wealth of overall training provided by the "legacy" carriers Vs the "just tick the box" attitude by the management (not necessarily the Flight Department) of the likes of VB and Pornstar.
VB lucked by grabbing a whole group of "legacy" trained F/O's who rapidly (and successfully) did upgrades, Pornstar is heavily dominated by a Flight Ops from the same "legacy" background (for better or worse, not getting in to THAT slinging match
.)It will be interesting to see how things progress in the future as the benefits of "legacy" carriers is diminished through natural attrition and the "just tick the box" attitude of modern day LCC management becomes dominant.
Personally I cannot see it in anyway being a step forward in safety and standards - however have been known to be wrong once or twice in the past, maybe wrong now! (but I don't think so.)
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Galdian there is more to life than money. Everytime I/we/they/whoever attempts to bring something positive to this site there are all you guys ready to shoot us down and be negative.
I agree aviation has become a s*@t of an industry, the dollars just are not there anymore but hell that is what we are qualified to do.
There are buckets of jet jobs available in OZ, and will be for the next few years. The T & C's may not be ideal but that is everyones choice. Get what I mean ?
I agree aviation has become a s*@t of an industry, the dollars just are not there anymore but hell that is what we are qualified to do.
There are buckets of jet jobs available in OZ, and will be for the next few years. The T & C's may not be ideal but that is everyones choice. Get what I mean ?
