Qantas to introduce AWA'a
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I recall many, many years ago being warned this was the sort of industrial relations and working conditions a lack of unity would lead too.
No! No! They cried as they stood on the sidelines, many were complicit in their actions whilst others rushed to sell their soul to the company store for mere pieces of silver guided by the dulcet soothing tones of the Silver Budgger!
In the intervening period more and more desperate souls decreed we will work for little shortly to become `We will fly for Food'
Introduced by a Labor Government using armed services & scab labour.
You cannot deny it!
Nor you can blame PM Johhn Howard - happend before his time and by your own hands.
Like it, Lump It and Weep!
DK
No! No! They cried as they stood on the sidelines, many were complicit in their actions whilst others rushed to sell their soul to the company store for mere pieces of silver guided by the dulcet soothing tones of the Silver Budgger!
In the intervening period more and more desperate souls decreed we will work for little shortly to become `We will fly for Food'
Introduced by a Labor Government using armed services & scab labour.
You cannot deny it!
Nor you can blame PM Johhn Howard - happend before his time and by your own hands.
Like it, Lump It and Weep!
DK
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So the new IR Laws & AWA's are not a product of the Howard Government, 'tis news to me DK!
I betcha there are some rather stupid feeling people around right now given it was howard who tied us to this price of petrol when he was treasurer, rising interest rates and draconian IR laws. What you thought Howard was a good guy ??? why 'cos he likes cricket??
The truth is he and his cronies are punishing the people who put him there and now his treatment - full of contempt - basiclly says to me "How effing stupid you lot are - now Me & my boys are gunna wreck your lives because you are idiotic uninformed dumb Australian voters - who only vote because you have to not because you educate yourselves and form any sort of independent and well informed view point!" - channel 9 is on this too I'm sure!!!!!
I betcha there are some rather stupid feeling people around right now given it was howard who tied us to this price of petrol when he was treasurer, rising interest rates and draconian IR laws. What you thought Howard was a good guy ??? why 'cos he likes cricket??
The truth is he and his cronies are punishing the people who put him there and now his treatment - full of contempt - basiclly says to me "How effing stupid you lot are - now Me & my boys are gunna wreck your lives because you are idiotic uninformed dumb Australian voters - who only vote because you have to not because you educate yourselves and form any sort of independent and well informed view point!" - channel 9 is on this too I'm sure!!!!!
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FACT: The miniture manager, A Joystar, gave GD an undertaking that JQ would be the bunny (gnome) for the QF group's introduction of AWA's
FACT: Jetstar (Rohan Crewmeals) has been working with Freehills (G Smith) for months on the AWA's.
FACT: Jetstar (Rohan Crewmeals) has been working with Freehills (G Smith) for months on the AWA's.
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ausflying, your statement "Our IR system after these changes is still the most regulated in the Western World. So they are hardly draconian" is unmitigated balderdash. Do some research before posting so as not to display such profound ignorance. Even the shining beacon of "free market" fundamentalism, the good ol' U S of A, has not enacted legislation as punitive and threatening as howardochet's putrid "work choices".
Last edited by jaded boiler; 16th Aug 2006 at 00:33.
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http://www.smh.com.au/news/business/...407809089.html
Hmmm once again we get the much vaunted 40% less cost base drivel.
Fact:QF are cooking the books.
Example: Jetstar take over a domestic route to Darwin. The QF ground staff are asked to quote what it actually costs to turn around a 737. The answer comes up as $1300. They are DIRECTED to charge the Jetstar $1000 for turning around the A320.
Voila, instant 30% saving on ground charges. Only the difference is still charged to Qantas which must bear the cost; it makes the percieved difference actually greater.
You have to ask why? In five years time of course there will be no need to ask. The great Jetstar experiment may well be at an end. But who cares? The aircraft, crews and AWA's will all be in place and ready for a simple repaint job.
Qantas will have put an end to those pesky unions and collective bargaining. You want to fly the 797?!!? How much are you willing to pay to play? You'll take a command by undercutting everyone by 40%?!!? Sign here! You had an incident overseas?!!? Sorry, you are on your own.
Hmmm once again we get the much vaunted 40% less cost base drivel.
Fact:QF are cooking the books.
Example: Jetstar take over a domestic route to Darwin. The QF ground staff are asked to quote what it actually costs to turn around a 737. The answer comes up as $1300. They are DIRECTED to charge the Jetstar $1000 for turning around the A320.
Voila, instant 30% saving on ground charges. Only the difference is still charged to Qantas which must bear the cost; it makes the percieved difference actually greater.
You have to ask why? In five years time of course there will be no need to ask. The great Jetstar experiment may well be at an end. But who cares? The aircraft, crews and AWA's will all be in place and ready for a simple repaint job.
Qantas will have put an end to those pesky unions and collective bargaining. You want to fly the 797?!!? How much are you willing to pay to play? You'll take a command by undercutting everyone by 40%?!!? Sign here! You had an incident overseas?!!? Sorry, you are on your own.
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Originally Posted by jaded boiler
ausflying, your statement "Our IR system after these changes is still the most regulated in the Western World. So they are hardly draconian" is unmitigated balderdash. Do some research before posting so as not to display such profound ignorance. Even the shining beacon of "free market" fundamentalism, the good ol' U S of A, has not enacted legislation as punitive and threatening as howardochet's putrid "work choices".
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Wrong again ausflying, the federally mandated minimum wage in the USA is $5.15 per hour, with individual states having the right to set the minimum wage at higher levels, which a large number do, some significantly so. If a group of employees in the US refuses individual contracts and insists on bargaining collectively with their employer, the employer is legally obliged to do so, unlike the present situation in Australia. Legislation pertaining to industrial action is less onerous with respect to employees in the US when compared with Australia's brave new world. Pattern bargaining and collusion in Australia by groups of employers in a given industry to suppress wages is legal, the same collective action by groups of employees industry wide is not. I could go on, but the old typing finger isn't what it used to be.
One of the government's key justifications of its new IR regime is simplification. This is nonsensical, the new legislation runs to thousands of pages and is inherently extremely complex. The detail in the complexity relates to the myriad of ways in which the bargaining power of employees is eroded.
No other western democracy has enacted legislation which is as degrading and as potentially deeply harmful to the hard won industrial rights, safeguards and remuneration levels of a large proportion of its working population, as Australia.
One of the government's key justifications of its new IR regime is simplification. This is nonsensical, the new legislation runs to thousands of pages and is inherently extremely complex. The detail in the complexity relates to the myriad of ways in which the bargaining power of employees is eroded.
No other western democracy has enacted legislation which is as degrading and as potentially deeply harmful to the hard won industrial rights, safeguards and remuneration levels of a large proportion of its working population, as Australia.
Last edited by jaded boiler; 17th Aug 2006 at 16:18.
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You are correct, Dark Knight, as to the origins of the current AWA’s. However that does not make them any less vile or sinister than the Individual Contracts they are modelled on that you and I, and more than a few others, politely declined some time ago.
The point has been made a couple of times, but it doesn’t hurt to reinforce it, that those of use who crew and maintain aircraft operate to a very strict set of priorities.
Mr Joyce, to his eternal shame, has demonstrated with his statements that he does not know, or worse, does not care that SAFETY comes before Passenger comfort, Schedule and Economy.
I have two Daughters who work part time in the ares Mr Joyce has identified as having similar ‘skill sets’ (God I hate these idiotic new age management terms).
I have asked my Daughters what emergency procedures training they have received in the event of an abnormality. How long is the expected time for staff to evacuate the restaurant in the event of a fire? What instructions do they give in relation to emergency lighting in the event visibility is reduced due to heavy smoke? How do they handle people who one minute are enjoying a meal and the next have to obey commands that are designed to save their lives?
My Daughters just give that, you’re not a bad bloke Dad, but WTF are you talking about!!!?, look, shake their heads and answer the telephone that seems to never stop ringing or on the odd occasions that I do answer it, be for me.
Mr Joyce, Flight Attendants are there to ensure the safety of their passengers and crew. This is what they are paid for. Everything else is icing on the cake.
For you to not only fail to acknowledge that, but completely misrepresent their area of expertise, is an absolute disgrace and, as I mentioned before, you should be utterly ashamed of yourself.
I believe that the two worst Prime Ministers our country has had have both been identified in this thread.
It brings a small smile to my face to think that the second has implemented the policy of the first whilst being supposedly politically diametrically opposed.
This smile is soon wiped away when I think that my children have to make their way in an Australia that resembles little the hopes, dreams and ideals that she was founded upon.
The point has been made a couple of times, but it doesn’t hurt to reinforce it, that those of use who crew and maintain aircraft operate to a very strict set of priorities.
Mr Joyce, to his eternal shame, has demonstrated with his statements that he does not know, or worse, does not care that SAFETY comes before Passenger comfort, Schedule and Economy.
I have two Daughters who work part time in the ares Mr Joyce has identified as having similar ‘skill sets’ (God I hate these idiotic new age management terms).
I have asked my Daughters what emergency procedures training they have received in the event of an abnormality. How long is the expected time for staff to evacuate the restaurant in the event of a fire? What instructions do they give in relation to emergency lighting in the event visibility is reduced due to heavy smoke? How do they handle people who one minute are enjoying a meal and the next have to obey commands that are designed to save their lives?
My Daughters just give that, you’re not a bad bloke Dad, but WTF are you talking about!!!?, look, shake their heads and answer the telephone that seems to never stop ringing or on the odd occasions that I do answer it, be for me.
Mr Joyce, Flight Attendants are there to ensure the safety of their passengers and crew. This is what they are paid for. Everything else is icing on the cake.
For you to not only fail to acknowledge that, but completely misrepresent their area of expertise, is an absolute disgrace and, as I mentioned before, you should be utterly ashamed of yourself.
I believe that the two worst Prime Ministers our country has had have both been identified in this thread.
It brings a small smile to my face to think that the second has implemented the policy of the first whilst being supposedly politically diametrically opposed.
This smile is soon wiped away when I think that my children have to make their way in an Australia that resembles little the hopes, dreams and ideals that she was founded upon.
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moer news
Australia's biggest airline Qantas will create a new air freight business, it announced today.
Express Freighters Australia will be a wholly owned subsidiary of Qantas, the company's statement to the stock exchange said.
It will begin in October with one leased Boeing 737-300 aircraft. Qantas said the company would begin with four pilots, growing to 40 with another three aircraft to be added by March next year.
Qantas chief executive officer Geoff Dixon said Express Freighters Australia had already employed pilots under Australian Workplace Agreements (AWAs).
"The pilots' AWAs have pay rates and conditions in line with industry standards for freighter pilots," Mr Dixon said.
Shares in Qantas were up two cents, or 0.6 per cent, to $3.12 in recent trade.
theage.com.au
Express Freighters Australia will be a wholly owned subsidiary of Qantas, the company's statement to the stock exchange said.
It will begin in October with one leased Boeing 737-300 aircraft. Qantas said the company would begin with four pilots, growing to 40 with another three aircraft to be added by March next year.
Qantas chief executive officer Geoff Dixon said Express Freighters Australia had already employed pilots under Australian Workplace Agreements (AWAs).
"The pilots' AWAs have pay rates and conditions in line with industry standards for freighter pilots," Mr Dixon said.
Shares in Qantas were up two cents, or 0.6 per cent, to $3.12 in recent trade.
theage.com.au
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more news
Australia's biggest airline Qantas will create a new air freight business, it announced today.
Express Freighters Australia will be a wholly owned subsidiary of Qantas, the company's statement to the stock exchange said.
It will begin in October with one leased Boeing 737-300 aircraft. Qantas said the company would begin with four pilots, growing to 40 with another three aircraft to be added by March next year.
Qantas chief executive officer Geoff Dixon said Express Freighters Australia had already employed pilots under Australian Workplace Agreements (AWAs).
"The pilots' AWAs have pay rates and conditions in line with industry standards for freighter pilots," Mr Dixon said.
Shares in Qantas were up two cents, or 0.6 per cent, to $3.12 in recent trade.
theage.com.au
Express Freighters Australia will be a wholly owned subsidiary of Qantas, the company's statement to the stock exchange said.
It will begin in October with one leased Boeing 737-300 aircraft. Qantas said the company would begin with four pilots, growing to 40 with another three aircraft to be added by March next year.
Qantas chief executive officer Geoff Dixon said Express Freighters Australia had already employed pilots under Australian Workplace Agreements (AWAs).
"The pilots' AWAs have pay rates and conditions in line with industry standards for freighter pilots," Mr Dixon said.
Shares in Qantas were up two cents, or 0.6 per cent, to $3.12 in recent trade.
theage.com.au
Evertonian
Here you go...this is what EFA are after...Enjoy!
Becoming a pilot with us ...
At Express Freighters Australia we look for crew who are professional, hardworking, safety conscious, have good interpersonal skills, and are 'team players'.
If this sound like you and you meet the below criteria, we look forward to receiving your application.
Licences/Ratings:
Direct Entry Captain Positions:
Australian or New Zealand citizenship or permanent residency.
At Express Freighters Australia we look for crew who are professional, hardworking, safety conscious, have good interpersonal skills, and are 'team players'.
If this sound like you and you meet the below criteria, we look forward to receiving your application.
Licences/Ratings:
- Captains - a valid Australian ATPL
- First Officers - a valid Australian ATPL
- Valid Class 1 Medical.
- Multi-Engine Instrument Rating.
- 737-300 Type Rating (Preferred).
Direct Entry Captain Positions:
- Total Time - 5000 hours.
- Command Time > 40,000kg: 3000 hours.
- Total Time - 3000 hours.
- Multi-Engine Time - 1500 hours.
Australian or New Zealand citizenship or permanent residency.
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Q&A
I dont have to sign an AWA.
I`ve found out that much.
So what happens if I don`t?
Am I immediately terminated or demoted?
Been to all the web sites I can find..Can`t find an answer
Anybody help?
I`ve found out that much.
So what happens if I don`t?
Am I immediately terminated or demoted?
Been to all the web sites I can find..Can`t find an answer
Anybody help?
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surf,
This is my understanding - so probably wrong!
You cannot be forced off a certified agreement (EBA) onto an AWA.
New starters can be employed straight onto an AWA, regardless of whether current employees are on an EBA.
The single biggest problem is when your EBA expires. If you entered another EBA since the new laws started, when that EBA expires - the employer can after 90 days, withdraw and revert you back to 4 or 5 very basic conditions and salary - something like $25k pa. Alternatively they can offer you an AWA. That this is allowed under these laws is absolutely appalling. A sad fact is that this is not even understood by some MP's who passed this legislation. There is no no-disadvantage test.
If you do not enter a new EBA (since the new laws), when your current EBA expires, you can stay on it indefinately. You will never get a pay rise though.
It makes it very difficult for anyone who's EBA expires from now (March) on. Do you risk entering a new one when at the end of the new EBA you may get completely screwed.
Or do you say stuff it, I'll (if the other guys vote the same) just continue under my just expired EBA; and though never get another payrise, at least my long won conditions will remain ?
Given the current management style at QF, I know which option I'd choose.
Another thing I have no idea about is if you have some guys on AWA's and some still under EBA conditions? How is seniority etc determined for rostering and promotion?
I suspect that if QF offer AWA's to mainline with the 787, they will initially offer them with quite good dollars to encourage guys out of EBA's. Then when the AWA expires in 5yrs, they'll say sorry - this is your new deal, take it or you are no longer required.
If no one wants to go to an AWA? A great reason to start forced redundancy for operational reasons, whilst J* AWA's do the wet lease.
Even further on - son of J* will undercut J* using exactly the same tactics except it may be even easier as AWA's will have little redundnacy clauses in them.
One more thing, can't see too many EBA's getting voted up from now. Though this will probably again favour the company "QF pilots reject 10% pay rise" (only because in 2 years they will be completely F^%$*&)
Very scary stuff.
This is my understanding - so probably wrong!
You cannot be forced off a certified agreement (EBA) onto an AWA.
New starters can be employed straight onto an AWA, regardless of whether current employees are on an EBA.
The single biggest problem is when your EBA expires. If you entered another EBA since the new laws started, when that EBA expires - the employer can after 90 days, withdraw and revert you back to 4 or 5 very basic conditions and salary - something like $25k pa. Alternatively they can offer you an AWA. That this is allowed under these laws is absolutely appalling. A sad fact is that this is not even understood by some MP's who passed this legislation. There is no no-disadvantage test.
If you do not enter a new EBA (since the new laws), when your current EBA expires, you can stay on it indefinately. You will never get a pay rise though.
It makes it very difficult for anyone who's EBA expires from now (March) on. Do you risk entering a new one when at the end of the new EBA you may get completely screwed.
Or do you say stuff it, I'll (if the other guys vote the same) just continue under my just expired EBA; and though never get another payrise, at least my long won conditions will remain ?
Given the current management style at QF, I know which option I'd choose.
Another thing I have no idea about is if you have some guys on AWA's and some still under EBA conditions? How is seniority etc determined for rostering and promotion?
I suspect that if QF offer AWA's to mainline with the 787, they will initially offer them with quite good dollars to encourage guys out of EBA's. Then when the AWA expires in 5yrs, they'll say sorry - this is your new deal, take it or you are no longer required.
If no one wants to go to an AWA? A great reason to start forced redundancy for operational reasons, whilst J* AWA's do the wet lease.
Even further on - son of J* will undercut J* using exactly the same tactics except it may be even easier as AWA's will have little redundnacy clauses in them.
One more thing, can't see too many EBA's getting voted up from now. Though this will probably again favour the company "QF pilots reject 10% pay rise" (only because in 2 years they will be completely F^%$*&)
Very scary stuff.
Last edited by murgatroid; 16th Aug 2006 at 14:05.
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There has been some more info arrive regarding whether or not you would be subject to the 25K pay rate should a company cancel an EBA. It may not be the case. What may happen is that you would then go the the "Fair Pay Commision" (said with straight face) and they would determine what your pay rate would be.
God knows what methodology they would use.
That is one of the problems with these new "simplified" laws. The regulations are almost 1000 pages long.
God knows what methodology they would use.
That is one of the problems with these new "simplified" laws. The regulations are almost 1000 pages long.
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Thanks Borg,
Given the QF longhaul certified agreement is probably 1000 pages long, I'm sure the fair pay dood would probably give you a bit more than 25k. The rest of your conditions however, will be written on a post-it note.
Given the QF longhaul certified agreement is probably 1000 pages long, I'm sure the fair pay dood would probably give you a bit more than 25k. The rest of your conditions however, will be written on a post-it note.
Originally Posted by qcc2
"The pilots' AWAs have pay rates and conditions in line with industry standards for freighter pilots," Mr Dixon said.
theage.com.au
theage.com.au
Lets add something similar to Mr Joyces comments in relation to the Jetstar EBA...
"The overall package will be significantly above the mean full-time earnings in what we believe are comparable industries with similar skill sets, such as truck drivers, forklift drivers and mail sorters."
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Qantas, pilots set for clash
Thurs "The Australian"
Qantas, pilots set for clash
Steve Creedy, Aviation writer
August 17, 2006
QANTAS is heading for a showdown with pilots after launching another subsidiary using Australian Workplace Agreements.
Qantas's move to set up a domestic freight subsidiary, Express Freighters Australia, has angered the Australian and International Pilots Association (AIPA), which is already suffering under what it considers a wage freeze for domestic pilots.
Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon announced yesterday that Express Freighters, a wholly owned subsidiary, would lease B737-300 aircraft including crew to Australian Air Express under a 12-year contract.
Mr Dixon said Express Freighters had already employed pilots under AWAs for the start up of the new business.
He said the new business would not only provide increased revenue but employment for pilots and additional work for Qantas engineers.
"The pilots' AWAs have pay rates and conditions in line with industry standards for freighter pilots," he said.
"Growing our freight operations is a core strategy for the Qantas Group, aimed at diversifying and strengthening our revenue base.
"Express will use former Qantas 737s, being converted to freighters at the airline's Avalon maintenance base."
The decision to use AWAs comes after Mr Dixon flagged their use in parts of the group on Sunday and Jetstar International announced it would be putting international flight attendants on the contracts.
Qantas told AIPA this week that domestic pilots would be offered a 3 per cent cash payment instead of a pay rise.
"On the one hand the company is crying poor, instigating a pay freeze, threatening to spread AWAs and establishing internal competition through Jetstar to drive wages and conditions down," said AIPA general manager Peter Somerville.
"At the same time, they are telling the market that they have made what analysts predict will be a $500 million profit and (are) increasing the package to top executives by more than $12 million."
Qantas is today expected to reveal a reduced profit after warning in June that pre-tax profit would slump 27 per cent to "around $670 million" after restructuring costs.
Meanwhile, Virgin Blue announced yesterday that Hawaiian Airlines would be its first US partner for its Velocity loyalty program. Other partners are Emirates and Virgin Atlantic.
===============================================
Qantas, pilots set for clash
Steve Creedy, Aviation writer
August 17, 2006
QANTAS is heading for a showdown with pilots after launching another subsidiary using Australian Workplace Agreements.
Qantas's move to set up a domestic freight subsidiary, Express Freighters Australia, has angered the Australian and International Pilots Association (AIPA), which is already suffering under what it considers a wage freeze for domestic pilots.
Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon announced yesterday that Express Freighters, a wholly owned subsidiary, would lease B737-300 aircraft including crew to Australian Air Express under a 12-year contract.
Mr Dixon said Express Freighters had already employed pilots under AWAs for the start up of the new business.
He said the new business would not only provide increased revenue but employment for pilots and additional work for Qantas engineers.
"The pilots' AWAs have pay rates and conditions in line with industry standards for freighter pilots," he said.
"Growing our freight operations is a core strategy for the Qantas Group, aimed at diversifying and strengthening our revenue base.
"Express will use former Qantas 737s, being converted to freighters at the airline's Avalon maintenance base."
The decision to use AWAs comes after Mr Dixon flagged their use in parts of the group on Sunday and Jetstar International announced it would be putting international flight attendants on the contracts.
Qantas told AIPA this week that domestic pilots would be offered a 3 per cent cash payment instead of a pay rise.
"On the one hand the company is crying poor, instigating a pay freeze, threatening to spread AWAs and establishing internal competition through Jetstar to drive wages and conditions down," said AIPA general manager Peter Somerville.
"At the same time, they are telling the market that they have made what analysts predict will be a $500 million profit and (are) increasing the package to top executives by more than $12 million."
Qantas is today expected to reveal a reduced profit after warning in June that pre-tax profit would slump 27 per cent to "around $670 million" after restructuring costs.
Meanwhile, Virgin Blue announced yesterday that Hawaiian Airlines would be its first US partner for its Velocity loyalty program. Other partners are Emirates and Virgin Atlantic.
===============================================
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Lets hope the freighter AWA has the company standard AWA termination clause (ala Geoffs last AWA):
"37.2 months FAR plus $500,000"
Total GD was paid upon the termination of his just ended contract $7.76million.
Oh, and paid as superannuation so the taxman probably won't see much, if any of it.
"37.2 months FAR plus $500,000"
Total GD was paid upon the termination of his just ended contract $7.76million.
Oh, and paid as superannuation so the taxman probably won't see much, if any of it.