Mid-air bomb plot 'a major threat
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Good post there Chuck but I am not sure if I agree that the problem comes purely from poor disaffected countries. The London Bombers and probably most of the conspirators in this plot would not fit that description.
The views expressed by one of Britains top policemen in the SMH article:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/fac...407675136.html would probably encapsulate the feelings of most people these days, with the exception of the PC brigade.
Profiling however would not have caught David Hicks or the member of this plot who was an Islamic convert. Terrorists organisations take advantage of the idealism of youth and the tendency of young people to see things in shades of black or white, for their purposes. You will never see the Bin Ladens of this world strapping a bomb to themselves, they think they have too much to live for, such as a Pan Islamic Superstate headed by... well... themselves.
Maybe we should see what would happen if we suggested that anyone under 30, regardless of race or religion should be singled out for special searches. Now that would be a debate worth watching!
The views expressed by one of Britains top policemen in the SMH article:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/fac...407675136.html would probably encapsulate the feelings of most people these days, with the exception of the PC brigade.
Profiling however would not have caught David Hicks or the member of this plot who was an Islamic convert. Terrorists organisations take advantage of the idealism of youth and the tendency of young people to see things in shades of black or white, for their purposes. You will never see the Bin Ladens of this world strapping a bomb to themselves, they think they have too much to live for, such as a Pan Islamic Superstate headed by... well... themselves.
Maybe we should see what would happen if we suggested that anyone under 30, regardless of race or religion should be singled out for special searches. Now that would be a debate worth watching!
Grandpa Aerotart
The Islamic youth of Britain, or at least enough of them, are dissaffected...many may be educated but that is just one part of the issue....you're right though. It's no real challenge for people of a certain 'talent' to wind up young men who feel a bit angry about this or that and turn a very few into terror bombers...so in that sense yes it is a Muslim community problem on one level.
Unfortunately the violence in Spain last year actually succeeded...changed the govt of the day and the incoming govt changed their foriegn policy. That has bolstered the fundamentalists...if they ever get the Brits or Yanks..or heaven forbid the Australian Govt to base the foriegn policies on 'what the Islamists think might be ok' we are ALL well and truly fecked....on that level it is our problem.
Yes the Islamists want a world wide Islamic Kalifat based around Sharia...but do you think they have told the grunt labour that?
What I find interesting about this latest drama here in London is the 'system' actually worked and stopped them/caught them...but still the mayhem at the airports?
I find it a little hard to work out why they would try and sneak explosives onto aircraft at LHR...when it would be so easy to smuggle a dozen MANPADS into SE England and sit in a tree copse in the middle of an otherwise empty field within 5nm of LHR, Gatwick, Stansted or Manchester and simply shoot down airliners as they file past between 4000 and 8000' on arrival/departure...a much more powerful statement than 3 or 4 widebodies blowing up over the Atlantic out of view.
Unfortunately the violence in Spain last year actually succeeded...changed the govt of the day and the incoming govt changed their foriegn policy. That has bolstered the fundamentalists...if they ever get the Brits or Yanks..or heaven forbid the Australian Govt to base the foriegn policies on 'what the Islamists think might be ok' we are ALL well and truly fecked....on that level it is our problem.
Yes the Islamists want a world wide Islamic Kalifat based around Sharia...but do you think they have told the grunt labour that?
What I find interesting about this latest drama here in London is the 'system' actually worked and stopped them/caught them...but still the mayhem at the airports?
I find it a little hard to work out why they would try and sneak explosives onto aircraft at LHR...when it would be so easy to smuggle a dozen MANPADS into SE England and sit in a tree copse in the middle of an otherwise empty field within 5nm of LHR, Gatwick, Stansted or Manchester and simply shoot down airliners as they file past between 4000 and 8000' on arrival/departure...a much more powerful statement than 3 or 4 widebodies blowing up over the Atlantic out of view.
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Originally Posted by OzExpat
A320... I'm off to the UK a bit later this month, so I'll "see" yer AUD2K SLR and raise with a AUD 3K Lappy!
UK reduces threat level
Earlier, Britain reduced its security threat level from "critical" to the "severe" level, where it has been for most of the past year.
The Government raised the threat level to "critical" - the highest of five levels - on Thursday before arresting 24 people who were allegedly plotting to blow up US-bound passenger jets.
The Department for Transport's website says following the downgrade of the threat level, passengers will be allowed to carry one item of hand baggage through the airport security search point.
But the ban on liquids remains, with the few exceptions being prescription medicines in liquid form as long as they are verified as authentic, and baby milk and liquid baby food, so long as it is tasted by the accompanying passenger.
The statement says laptop computers will be allowed into the cabin of aircraft, but must be removed from the bag and placed in a tray when being X-ray screened.
Home Secretary John Reid says there has now been time to assess intelligence after the police operation.
"The police believe that the main suspects in the alleged plot were arrested last week," he said.
"The public needs to know that there may be other people out there who may be planning an attack against the UK. That is why there are a number of other security service operations under way."
Originally Posted by Chimbu chuckles
..when it would be so easy to smuggle a dozen MANPADS into SE England and sit in a tree copse in the middle of an otherwise empty field within 5nm of LHR, Gatwick, Stansted or Manchester and simply shoot down airliners as they file past between 4000 and 8000' on arrival/departure...a much more powerful statement than 3 or 4 widebodies blowing up over the Atlantic out of view.
Tracability a factor too. Iranian supplied SAM's say, in an actual or foiled attack, would give a nice excuse for punitive strikes against her nuclear installations.
Topping off with the fact, suicide bombing chills the Western pysche more effectively, according to Al Queda. Hamas has been quoted as saying this aswell; life loving Jews fear the suicide bomber concept more than any other form of terrorism.
Last edited by Gnadenburg; 14th Aug 2006 at 05:46.
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BA Flight Turns Back
From ABC Web Site
Last Update: Monday, August 14, 2006. 10:38am (AEST)
BA flight turns around after mobile phone rings
A British Airways (BA) flight carrying 231 people from London to New York has turned around mid-flight and returned to London's Heathrow airport after a mobile phone started ringing.
A BA spokeswoman says flight BA179 has returned to Heathrow as a precautionary measure.
"A mobile phone was located on board the aircraft which none of the passengers appear to own," she said.
Britain imposed severe restrictions on hand luggage on board aircraft - including a ban on all electronic equipment - on Thursday after police said they thwarted a plot to bomb US-bound jets in mid-flight.
The alleged plot involved smuggling liquid explosives disguised as drinks or medicine and detonating them with a mobile phone or other electronic device.
The BA spokeswoman said the captain assessed the situation with the BA security team at Heathrow Airport, and although it was decided that it was safe to continue, the captain decided to return to Heathrow as a precaution.
"The captain explained his decision to the 217 passengers on board the aircraft," she said.
The aircraft will be security-searched at Heathrow before it departs again for New York this evening.
The spokeswoman said 12 cabin crew and two flight crew were also on board.
"We apologise to customers for the inconvenience but their safety is our number 1 priority and we will always err on the side of caution," she said.
Last Update: Monday, August 14, 2006. 10:38am (AEST)
BA flight turns around after mobile phone rings
A British Airways (BA) flight carrying 231 people from London to New York has turned around mid-flight and returned to London's Heathrow airport after a mobile phone started ringing.
A BA spokeswoman says flight BA179 has returned to Heathrow as a precautionary measure.
"A mobile phone was located on board the aircraft which none of the passengers appear to own," she said.
Britain imposed severe restrictions on hand luggage on board aircraft - including a ban on all electronic equipment - on Thursday after police said they thwarted a plot to bomb US-bound jets in mid-flight.
The alleged plot involved smuggling liquid explosives disguised as drinks or medicine and detonating them with a mobile phone or other electronic device.
The BA spokeswoman said the captain assessed the situation with the BA security team at Heathrow Airport, and although it was decided that it was safe to continue, the captain decided to return to Heathrow as a precaution.
"The captain explained his decision to the 217 passengers on board the aircraft," she said.
The aircraft will be security-searched at Heathrow before it departs again for New York this evening.
The spokeswoman said 12 cabin crew and two flight crew were also on board.
"We apologise to customers for the inconvenience but their safety is our number 1 priority and we will always err on the side of caution," she said.
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Originally Posted by KLN94
Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims...
That's a bit of a sweeping statement
I'm not sure that there were too many Muslims involved on either side in Northern Ireland and I can't recall reading reports that Aum Shinrikyo having a large number of Muslims on its books.
Other non-Muslim terrorist organisations of recent years:
Baader Meinhof - German
Carlos - Venezuelan
Red Brigades - Italy and Japan
Oklahoma City bomber - American
FARC - Colombian
I'm not defending the current crop but KLN, your generalisation is far too wide and not really a useful addition to the debate.
Last edited by Taildragger67; 15th Aug 2006 at 08:15.
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Well I don't think that the Oklahoma bomber was an organisation, and others such as Baader-Meinhof have not been active for many years.
On the other hand, there are thousands of Islamic terror groups, factions, and cells, all around the world.
Chimbu
It does say that, I checked... maybe you should read it. More to the point, Islam may accept Jesus as a great prophet, but the Islamic litmus test is how you think of Mohammed, not Jesus. Unles you can say "there is only one God, and Mohammed is His Prophet", you ain't in the club... and if you won't say that, you will probably end up dead if the person asking you is armed and in a bad mood. The danger is not so much what is written, but the way in which it can be used to justify Jihad.
The reason that most Muslims don't simply go out and kill their Christian neighbours, is that most are as nominal as the Christians next door... they don't want to fight. It is the extremists you have to worry about - the numbers of which are increasing geometrically.
The reason Islam is so dangerous, is that if you are faithful and go to the mosque five times a day, you will almost certainly hear, five times a day, how the West is corrupt and evil, and how America is the Great Satan. This routinely occurs in British mosques too - it has always amazed me that the Brits allow it, as it is basically sedition. Not only that, but in all the madrassas (islamic schools) around Birmingham, Bradford etc., the same message of hate is preached. Muslim children grow up in the UK believing, as a matter of course, that these things are true, and the British government allows it - in fact, they encourage it. The dangerous youths aren't the disaffected ones, but the "educated" ones. Of course, the problem is a lot worse in the Middle East - but if you really want to scare yourself, look at how islam has spread around the world... chilling.
Add to the mix a religion that encourages it's adherents to kill themselves in return for instant access to paradise and a large number of virgins (the actual number varies depending on who you talk to), and you have a major problem. The people blowing themselves up aren't doing it out of a sense of duty, they really, really want to die.
The only way you can deal with that is to deal with the root cause, and that will involve giving up our PC notions and making some tough calls.
If it were me, I would close ALL religious schools, monitor the mosques, and come down very hard on anyone who preaches violence.
On the other hand, there are thousands of Islamic terror groups, factions, and cells, all around the world.
Chimbu
If the Quiran really said kill all christians where-ever you find them surely they would start with the people 3 streets across just because they were handy....but they don't. Islam in fact believes that JC was a great prophet...not the son of god but definately a cool dude.
The reason that most Muslims don't simply go out and kill their Christian neighbours, is that most are as nominal as the Christians next door... they don't want to fight. It is the extremists you have to worry about - the numbers of which are increasing geometrically.
The reason Islam is so dangerous, is that if you are faithful and go to the mosque five times a day, you will almost certainly hear, five times a day, how the West is corrupt and evil, and how America is the Great Satan. This routinely occurs in British mosques too - it has always amazed me that the Brits allow it, as it is basically sedition. Not only that, but in all the madrassas (islamic schools) around Birmingham, Bradford etc., the same message of hate is preached. Muslim children grow up in the UK believing, as a matter of course, that these things are true, and the British government allows it - in fact, they encourage it. The dangerous youths aren't the disaffected ones, but the "educated" ones. Of course, the problem is a lot worse in the Middle East - but if you really want to scare yourself, look at how islam has spread around the world... chilling.
Add to the mix a religion that encourages it's adherents to kill themselves in return for instant access to paradise and a large number of virgins (the actual number varies depending on who you talk to), and you have a major problem. The people blowing themselves up aren't doing it out of a sense of duty, they really, really want to die.
The only way you can deal with that is to deal with the root cause, and that will involve giving up our PC notions and making some tough calls.
If it were me, I would close ALL religious schools, monitor the mosques, and come down very hard on anyone who preaches violence.
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OK Taily, noted and agreed.
Let me reprhase so I am a little more specific:
Not all Muslims are terrorists (that were involved in Sept 11, US embassy bombings, USS Cole, London bus bombings, British Embassy bombing, recent hand luggage bombing plan, etc), but all terrorists (that were involved in Sept 11, US embassy bombings, USS Cole, London bus bombings, British Embassy bombing, recent hand luggage bombing plan, etc) are Muslims...
And I beleive this to be an entirely useful and appropriate addition to this debate.
Let me reprhase so I am a little more specific:
Not all Muslims are terrorists (that were involved in Sept 11, US embassy bombings, USS Cole, London bus bombings, British Embassy bombing, recent hand luggage bombing plan, etc), but all terrorists (that were involved in Sept 11, US embassy bombings, USS Cole, London bus bombings, British Embassy bombing, recent hand luggage bombing plan, etc) are Muslims...
And I beleive this to be an entirely useful and appropriate addition to this debate.
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MOR
KLN's earlier post didn't limit itself to 'organisations' or 'recent miscreants'.
KLN
Fair 'nuff and you provide an accurate list of recent events. Indeed I'd add Bali, the Limburg, WTC '93 and the US embassies in East Africa.
But keep in mind (f'rinstance):
- Omagh
- Bishopsgate
- Canary Wharf
- Aldwych bus
- Waterloo station (ever wondered why there are no public bins on the tube or in the City?)
- Lord Mountbatten
- 4 Aussies in Holland
My point is simply that terrorism has been with us for years; the current Muslim-centred caper is merely the latest manifestation. That will eventually die down (no pun intended) and be replaced by some other bunch with a gripe
.
KLN's earlier post didn't limit itself to 'organisations' or 'recent miscreants'.
KLN
Fair 'nuff and you provide an accurate list of recent events. Indeed I'd add Bali, the Limburg, WTC '93 and the US embassies in East Africa.
But keep in mind (f'rinstance):
- Omagh
- Bishopsgate
- Canary Wharf
- Aldwych bus
- Waterloo station (ever wondered why there are no public bins on the tube or in the City?)
- Lord Mountbatten
- 4 Aussies in Holland
My point is simply that terrorism has been with us for years; the current Muslim-centred caper is merely the latest manifestation. That will eventually die down (no pun intended) and be replaced by some other bunch with a gripe
.
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PPRuNeaholic
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Thanks for that A320, now all we need is for QF to update themselves on the requirements, as posted on their website! I have your PMs and will respond to those shortly... thanks!
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Taildragger67
Oh yes it did - my bolding:
In the english language, that word does indeed limit the list that follows it. Maybe not in Strine though... 
MOR
KLN's earlier post didn't limit itself to 'organisations' or 'recent miscreants'.
KLN's earlier post didn't limit itself to 'organisations' or 'recent miscreants'.
Other non-Muslim terrorist organisations of recent years:
Baader Meinhof - German
Carlos - Venezuelan
Red Brigades - Italy and Japan
Oklahoma City bomber - American
FARC - Colombian
Baader Meinhof - German
Carlos - Venezuelan
Red Brigades - Italy and Japan
Oklahoma City bomber - American
FARC - Colombian
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Originally Posted by OzExpat
Thanks for that A320, now all we need is for QF to update themselves on the requirements, as posted on their website! I have your PMs and will respond to those shortly... thanks!
http://www.qantas.com.au/info/ukTravelAdvice?int_cam=28
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Gassed budgie
“Iran is responsible directly and indirectly for most of what goes under the name of terrorism today.”
Along with Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. But being allies, we kindly overlook their misdemeanors such as those that occurred on 11/9 2001.
Keg
“Do we see the same level of condemnation about the acts of Hezbollah, al qaeda, etc from the muslim community?”
I no longer live in Australia and rarely view Australian news media but outrage is indeed being expressed in Muslim communities in many places including the Middle East.
The key reasons behind the “war on terror”, like the American war (also known as the Vietnam War), will not become clear to the public until long after the event has faded into history. Only then will we fully understand the extent to which we have been manipulated and lied to.
The latest conflict involving Israel is being sold to us using very simple and short term explanations when in fact Israeli forces have probably been planning their latest adventure for years and have much to gain from creating a “buffer zone” reaching as far toward the Litani River as possible. Desalination plants, oil pipelines and a buffer from Iranian reprisals following a US attack are more pressing strategic aims for Israel than the return of some kidnapped soldiers.
“Iran is responsible directly and indirectly for most of what goes under the name of terrorism today.”
Along with Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. But being allies, we kindly overlook their misdemeanors such as those that occurred on 11/9 2001.
Keg
“Do we see the same level of condemnation about the acts of Hezbollah, al qaeda, etc from the muslim community?”
I no longer live in Australia and rarely view Australian news media but outrage is indeed being expressed in Muslim communities in many places including the Middle East.
The key reasons behind the “war on terror”, like the American war (also known as the Vietnam War), will not become clear to the public until long after the event has faded into history. Only then will we fully understand the extent to which we have been manipulated and lied to.
The latest conflict involving Israel is being sold to us using very simple and short term explanations when in fact Israeli forces have probably been planning their latest adventure for years and have much to gain from creating a “buffer zone” reaching as far toward the Litani River as possible. Desalination plants, oil pipelines and a buffer from Iranian reprisals following a US attack are more pressing strategic aims for Israel than the return of some kidnapped soldiers.
the slight difference...
Tail' is correct in asserting that "terrorism has been with us for years" but the difference now is that, unlike previous waves, the terrorists actually seek from the outset of their planning, to kill themselves too while attempting to make their point. That's a particularly radical muslim thing to be aiming for which has altogether too much tacit support, from even the less radical in that community, for my taste. Outcry after such events seems often to be more like 'we condemn this attack.... but you have to understand their point!' I don't accept that when ordinary people going about their daily routine are the targets.
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Nunc est bibendum
Big deail oicur. I bet you that tucked away in some in the bottom drawer the Aussies have plans for attacking Indon.... oops I mean Kamaria. 
I bet you we've spoken to the US about them too!
oops I mean Kamaria. I bet you we've spoken to the US about them too!
oicur12
You can do better than that. A judo-christian conspricacy theory?
State sponsored terrorism ( Iran ) versus violent, dissident terrorist groups within dictatorships ( Pakistain, Egypt and loosely Saudia Arabia ). That's on your opening remarks.
Israeli strategic objectives a given on your last. Why else do you invade a country in modern times?
The link you offered was even less convincing. Firstly, of course the Israelis would be gauging the political support of their biggest supporters and supplier of arms. Secondly, to suggest the Israelis, who have dismantled Arab armies conventionally on numerous occasions, and have been embroiled in a bitter invasion of the Lebanon in the 80's, would seek American military foresight absurd!
But I must say. Although brutal, Vietnam style carpet bombing south of the Litani, may have been more useful in countering Hizbollah tunnelling than modern techniques. But we used up Western will and patience with this style of warfare, on a relatively passive people who have no oil nor fervour for religious martyrdom.
You can do better than that. A judo-christian conspricacy theory?
State sponsored terrorism ( Iran ) versus violent, dissident terrorist groups within dictatorships ( Pakistain, Egypt and loosely Saudia Arabia ). That's on your opening remarks.
Israeli strategic objectives a given on your last. Why else do you invade a country in modern times?
The link you offered was even less convincing. Firstly, of course the Israelis would be gauging the political support of their biggest supporters and supplier of arms. Secondly, to suggest the Israelis, who have dismantled Arab armies conventionally on numerous occasions, and have been embroiled in a bitter invasion of the Lebanon in the 80's, would seek American military foresight absurd!
But I must say. Although brutal, Vietnam style carpet bombing south of the Litani, may have been more useful in countering Hizbollah tunnelling than modern techniques. But we used up Western will and patience with this style of warfare, on a relatively passive people who have no oil nor fervour for religious martyrdom.