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How much for deicing equipment - a question for the Qantas beancounters

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How much for deicing equipment - a question for the Qantas beancounters

Old 20th Jul 2006, 21:47
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How much for deicing equipment - a question for the Qantas beancounters

.....or how to piss off your customers......

I'm sitting in the QF lounge in MEL having boarded and been kicked off QF400 to Sydney due to frost on the control surfaces. Once the brush and elbow grease method failed, Qantas' next contingency is to wait for the sun.

Flight now listed as cancelled but no information or announcements.....

....and to top it off, a front row view of a steady stream of DJ aircraft lining up for takeoff.

Not happy Darth!

UTR.
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Old 20th Jul 2006, 22:50
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UTR,
Do you suppose for a minute that the DJ aircraft have been de-iced
I'd suggest not, I don't believe they have any equipment in Melbourne.

With all respect to DJ drivers but it follows then you are being green eyed of not being on an aircraft which potentially has ice on its control surfaces.

What type of aircraft was it though? If it was the A330 then it's possibly come in from Perth etc with lots of cold fuel in the wings. This can induce ice to form on the wing and, if not dealt with correctly, has led to long delays.

Engagement is getting worse by the day at QF. The A330, overmanned as half the pilots are waiting for the delayed delayed delayed A380, about to loose 4 aircraft to J* to be crewed by cheap labour, unstable rosters looking worse by the minute and no vision of what the next year will hold other than more forced leave, has justifiably the worst of this negative engagement.

Traditionally the more thumbs are stuck in by management, in any buisness, the workers run for cover and little real work is done. If someone knows the answer to a problem he won't risk putting his hand up for fear of being noticed - sacked or harassed. Effort and innovation dies as we sit in our bunkers waiting for the war to pass as we plot an escape from the mess we have been put in by greedy management.

Many early A330 flights are delayed due ice, it's a known issue. Indeed ice can even be deliberatly induced, though I doubt and pray we are not at that point yet.

all over crying in spilt milk, just sad now
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Old 20th Jul 2006, 23:10
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Looks like it's all around with the QF aircraft, the early Dash to Willy is late as well, it's usually the first to get frosted parked out the end of B finger.

This happens every time there is a frost in MEL. Been happening since at least 2001 when I started at the airport.

The anecdotal story is that deice fluid isn't allowed as it will run off into some creek and pollute it - but if DJ are doing the squirty thing then that argument is moot.

Last big frost a month or 2 ago they were boarding the QF aircraft and towing them down to the Golf apron for deicing (at least that was what it said on the screens) - I never got down there for a look as one of the frosty Dashs decided to have a fuel leak as well. So I don't know what sort of setup was down there and who was doing it.

I've seen some creative solutions from the QF engineers, like using a huffer cart to hot air deice the wings. They had an old deice machine as well that they used to fill up with hot water, but seeing as the heater unit had been removed long ago, the water would be lukewarm at best by the time it got to the line - and no deice fluid to stop refreeze. It may work but it's not really a legal approved method, and therein lies the catch.
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Old 20th Jul 2006, 23:48
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i dont think theres enough of a winter in aus to get them...

Aussie
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Old 21st Jul 2006, 00:02
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Mother Nature will always win. No amount of money will stop that!
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Old 21st Jul 2006, 00:38
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Lets face it guys, the bean counters at QF are too scared to even suggest spending money on a device that may be used only a handful of times a year.

Not only that, but if the bean counters actually tallied just how much it costs Qantas in not only directly delayed services, but also the flow on effect and net schedule disruption then they might actually be surprised.

But wait!
QF just may be able to charge other operators to de-ice their aircraft and it just may pay for the capital outlay on the equipment and in certain conditions will pay for itself handsomely over time.

Now if only the twats that own the airports in SYD/MEL/PER/ADL/CBR actually paid for a CAT III ILS system we may have some workable and flexible transport infrastructure.
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Old 21st Jul 2006, 00:57
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I think you would find that deicing infrastructure is an airport issue rather than an airline one...certainly in places where its use is common.

But we cannot miss an op to slag off QF can we?

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Old 21st Jul 2006, 02:50
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Rusky solution

Aaaghh but how about the Russian solution....pour vodka on the wings!!! Dont worry about overspill, all the pax can be given glasses to collect the spill off the wings, add a bit of melon juice voila!!!! (Make sure you charge them for the drinks though!!)
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Old 21st Jul 2006, 03:36
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Originally Posted by Chimbu chuckles
IBut we cannot miss an op to slag off QF can we?

Definately not.
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Old 21st Jul 2006, 08:29
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If I had an aviation/economics degree I'd probably suggest that the cost of supplying de-icing facilities for mainland Aus would be prohibitive when compared to the time lost due to icing conditions.

A bit like arguments for CATIIIz ILS capability to cover a few days fog per year. Some one's gotta pay and it won't be the gummint!
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Old 21st Jul 2006, 08:43
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Mud Skipper I'll bite. You're a right w*#@%r if you think any Captain would knowingly takeoff without appropriate de-icing. Why lay **** on VB, get ya facts straight next time.
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Old 21st Jul 2006, 09:36
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The story I heard more than once today was that QF has a de icing truck/rig, but the tank for it is still on the way. Also heard that one reason this has been more prelavent over the last few years, is the wing profile on the 738 is slightly different to the 734.
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Old 21st Jul 2006, 12:02
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I don't know what the temp was down in MEL, but did anyone think to use some tap water, the temp of the tap water will be higher than ambient, and should melt the ice/frost without a problem,
EK's A340-500's get ice/frost on the upper wing surface regularly, the engineers in SYD just hose it off with the potable water hose.
It's not hard, water in pipe warmer than ambient and ice/frost = melt
As long as ambient is above freezing! duh
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Old 22nd Jul 2006, 02:42
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Originally Posted by MENDAERO
I don't know what the temp was down in MEL, but did anyone think to use some tap water, the temp of the tap water will be higher than ambient, and should melt the ice/frost without a problem,
EK's A340-500's get ice/frost on the upper wing surface regularly, the engineers in SYD just hose it off with the potable water hose.
It's not hard, water in pipe warmer than ambient and ice/frost = melt
As long as ambient is above freezing! duh
Mendaero.
Nice try...I can assure you that this one's been thought of since Adam was a boy.
Warm water on a large frozen surface area = bigger ice problem.
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Old 22nd Jul 2006, 11:35
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Can confirm DJ actually does have and regularly uses de-ice equipment in MEL.

MENDAERO - the problem with the NG is that if you have sufficient fuel in the wing tanks, this fuel comes in contact with the upper surface of the wing. If the fuel is still at say minus 15 C, the surface of the wing is basically minus 15C also. Therefore the water will freeze as it runs over the wing.
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Old 22nd Jul 2006, 12:56
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You'll have to explain to me why the EK guys don't have a problem with it?
the fuel may be -15 on arrival but after you refuel with substantially warmer fuel that theory is blown away, so hosing it off after refueling would be a good idea.
Hey if the conditions aren't right ie below zero then yeah, but tap water could very well be 10 degrees warmer than ambient, it will melt the frost/ice, it just depends on how much ice you have and how long it takes.
I have no doubt if you splash a bit of water on it, your right it will freeze onto the ice, however if you keep running water over it and with a tank full of warm fuel it will melt. Perhaps no one had any patience since adam was a boy.
BTW have you guys ever had a problem with ice/frost on a rainy day? in OZ i mean.
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Old 22nd Jul 2006, 13:23
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Mendaero the EK guys do have a problem with it, a recent 2 hr delay in MEL due frost. The reason there is no de-ice kit in MEL is not the cost but the "greenies" so as much as I dislike bean counters it's not their fault this time. There are de-ice "trucks" but they have a 200ltr (approx) drum of heated water, there is not any de-ice fluid as such and perhaps this is what the DJ guys use. Pouring water on a cold wing can result in freezing in areas out of sight but the MEL water system is not used unless ambient temps are >5 deg C.
Its when the inner tanks of the 330 have cold fuel left in them after a long flight and the warmer (new) fuel can't warm it enough that you can get frost on the top. The outers have the same problem if you land with fuel in them. One trick is to transfer the outers to the inners on the ground then top up with warmer fuel. Its could be that the 73s are doing there first flight of the day and therefor not cold soaked?
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Old 22nd Jul 2006, 13:48
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I believe it is quite common for the EK guys to sit and wait until the sun comes up at YMML.
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Old 23rd Jul 2006, 05:08
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I have been sitting back reading the various posts about this and it is quite amusing to read all what the 'instant experts' have to say. There is no deice equip avail. in mel for qf yet (soon to be rect.) You can't use cold water as an alt. it must be warmer than 82 Cels. Cold soak fuel frost affects 738,A330 and if cond. right 767. If there is no deice avail your only alt. is to transfer fuel, upload some more or wait for the sun. What happened on Fri. it was Jack frost ex onite and all that was avail. to remove it was the good old broom after the big ball of gas in the sky had done its job.
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Old 25th Jul 2006, 12:49
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MJ2

absolutely spot-on

After many years of winter icing delays and from QF Mel engineering there is finally a de-icing unit in Mel, but only after a six months plus capital expenditure approval process from boffinsville in Syd.

While waiting for the necessary risk assesment process and obligatory operator training QF & VB have agreed to hire the VB equipment and operator as required. This equipment was available last Friday however VB were unable to provide an operator due to the manpower required to support their own operation as no prior arrangement was in place. This after numerous requests to QF local management to put in place a contingency prior to the QF equipment being up and running!

Interesting that VB, who relatively speaking have been around for 5 minutes in comparison to QF, have the necessary equipment in Mel.

But we're just the dumb fools on the floor, what would we know?

While on the QF bash bandwagon, we're just as peeved as the fare paying pax that are being disrupted by the incompetence of these management tools in Sidchrome house.
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