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Pilot Suspensions / Mt Cook Airlines

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Pilot Suspensions / Mt Cook Airlines

Old 21st Jul 2006, 05:26
  #61 (permalink)  
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Yeah it's a real bastard when someone disagrees with the union line, isn't it?

People who refuse to learn from the mistakes of others, are doomed to repeat them. Maybe taking your head out of the sand would be a good start...
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Old 21st Jul 2006, 05:41
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Hypothetical question.

If I was a Manager (mangler) in a Company and I cost/spent/wasted one million dollars in an eight or nine month period to 'save' said Company a hundred thousand bucks would I keep my job?

Throw in destroying the goodwill and morale of the staff, creating friction and angst within the other business units and then finish it all of by distrupting thousands of clients and generally f-king everyone off...how would I go then...promotion maybe?

No; my ar$e would be on the street.

The conspiracy folk are right; if you know the secret handshake thats top work
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Old 21st Jul 2006, 05:51
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"it's a real bastard when someone disagrees with the union line, isn't it?

People who refuse to learn from the mistakes of others, are doomed to repeat them. Maybe taking your head out of the sand would be a good start..."

Ok not sure what those comments have to do with mine! Didn't mention a union once me thinks

What I'm trying to point out is that what is been asked for is a pittance MOR someone whos in the know could point out to you that the pilot group is actualy taking allowance cuts ect in other areas!

As Kmagyoyo says for a little more than the GM's salary a year the company has lost millions fighting it
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Old 21st Jul 2006, 06:46
  #64 (permalink)  
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What I'm trying to point out is that what is been asked for is a pittance MOR someone whos in the know could point out to you that the pilot group is actualy taking allowance cuts ect in other areas!
And like I keep saying, over and over and over again... I agree with you.

It's the big picture that you need to think about. Yes, it may have cost them millions, but any competent GM knows that when it comes to union disputes, getting your way is worth ten times the cost, when measured against future disputes. Ansett were willing to bet the farm on that, because the prize was so tempting. In the end, they were wrong, but everybody ended up unemployed. There is a lesson there...
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Old 21st Jul 2006, 07:29
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Ok starting to understand your point MOR!

Question for you, say your at your current job earning $65K a year your manager says guess wot your staying on that for the next 6 years. Inflation is 3.5%. So for the next 6 years your quality of life is going to decrease because every day items are getting more expensive and your $ just don't go as far anymore.

WOULD YOU ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN TO YOU AND JEPORDISE YOUR FAMILY?

Thats all they are doing down there union or no union its not wright when the company is creaming it.

HB
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Old 21st Jul 2006, 08:11
  #66 (permalink)  
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Question for you, say your at your current job earning $65K a year your manager says guess wot your staying on that for the next 6 years. Inflation is 3.5%. So for the next 6 years your quality of life is going to decrease because every day items are getting more expensive and your $ just don't go as far anymore.

WOULD YOU ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN TO YOU AND JEPORDISE YOUR FAMILY?
Well, that depends. How much do you want to continue flying?

Of course we all know the answer to that one. Pilots are very highly motivated and are generally used to crap conditions before they get to the airlines. Managers know this, and exploit it in pay negotiations. They also know that such a course of action as the one you describe, in no way jeapordises anybodys' family... that is just emotional nonsense. The actual dollar amount is minimal, and in any case nobody knows what inflation will be next year.

One of the features of airline pay negotiations overseas - yes, I know you don't care about anything outside NZ, but hear me out - is that the pilots have to decide just how much they can afford to lose. Some pilots will bet the farm on that 3.5%, others will tighten their belts and be damn thankful that they actually have the flying job they fought so hard to get. Generally, the latter are in the majority and when push comes to shove, that is what will undermine any union negotiations.

You might not think that international trends matter, but the fact is that Air NZ looks overseas to identify trends that it can then exploit. They are an international airline, and they employ people from countries where these things are done very differently. If you want to ignore recent history, that's fine, but your employer will always be two steps ahead of you when it comes to pay negotiations. They are looking at a much bigger picture, and they know more than you do about their business.

Let me ask you another. How would you feel if Air NZ was to close down Mt Cook, transfer the assets to Freedom Air, and re-employ the crews on new T's and C's? And if, in so doing, they were to adopt a low-cost model (a real one), which meant that if you wanted your old job back, you would have to pay for your uniform, your car park, your crew meal, your medicals and licence renewal? You see, you think you have power, but you really don't have that much.

Let's extend it a bit further. Let's say our new LCC, that used to be Mt Cook, was to ditch all the NZ pilots and hire a bunch of guys from Asia?

Before you say "it could never happen", imagine what the Ansett guys were saying before they all ended up unemployed, or the Aussie pilots were saying before they all ended up moving to Europe and Asia in '89.

Ask those guys whether it was all worth it, and see what they say.

How much do you want that flying job?

The flip side is that there is more than one way to skin a cat... and some of the Euro carriers are shining examples of what CAN be achieved if you are SMART.

I'm afraid most NZ airline pay negotiations resemble cave men armed with bludgeons. Lots of blood, but little progress.

Anyway... I support the Mt Cook guys. But I also see the situation differently.
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Old 21st Jul 2006, 21:30
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In the sleepy Nz backwater, there is a little industrial law that stops any business from making people redundant and then employing others to fill the void. Makes sense ey! Mt Cook will NOT be closed down, Simple. Do you notice MOR you are about the only dissenting voice here. Are you trying to make yourself feel better for lying down and taking it from behind sometime in the past...........? In one breath you say you support pilots looking to maintain/better their lot and in the next you say pretty much they are fools for trying!
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Old 21st Jul 2006, 21:56
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The conspiracy folk are right; if you know the secret handshake thats top work
Kmag, please don't tell single engine Pete is the Grand Pooh-Bar!!!!!!

The Otago Daily Times was approached by travel agents complaining about the actions of the Mount Cook pilots on ATR flights between Dunedin and Christchurch.
How about complaining about the actions of the company? (As to which one, AIRNZ or Mt Cook that will depend on which one suits them at the time.)

Mr Duff said many flights were being cancelled with less than 24 notice
What a fine comment. Because people normally call in sick days in advance. If a pilot gave a weeks notice of illness it wouldn't matter, they'd still have to cancel the flight! (Non union pilots being able to cover some of them excepted of course )

MOR: With all your expertise and cat skinning abilities you should contact ALPA and give them a hand. In a similar vein to Max Rates post, it seems you are an enigma, shrouded in mystery and wrapped up in a dog turd. (Now waiting to be called an idiot and told to reread your posts.)
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Old 22nd Jul 2006, 04:47
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well well

dont worry about MOR, he is negitive about everything, i remember a recent post where someone was asking about Beech 1900 performance, and guess who pipes up saying "who cares", and another where he condensendingly calls a B737 a light twin. As i have said before; yes MOR we all know you are gods gift to aviation, now leave us alone to protect what is ours. You really do have some major chip! wonder where it comes from?

(now also waiting for the bombs to start falling )
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Old 23rd Jul 2006, 00:19
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but any competent GM knows that when it comes to union disputes, getting your way is worth ten times the cost, when measured against future disputes
Well it's 15 going on 20 times the cost now. Still competent?
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Old 23rd Jul 2006, 00:46
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Between this one and the great thread on the kid getting a ride over Auckland recently I agree with you Speeds High, MOR can come across negative.
But beyond the boorish tone and the overbearing attitude, if in this case, MOR is simply playing the devil's advocate, then there are some good points within the lines.

It might be that this dispute could be an opportunity to slow any perceived alignment of NZ CoS with the international trend. With Mt Cook's place at least a couple of tiers away from direct overseas comparison and taking into account the overall package, it all might work in the pilots favour just yet.

The words of these self professed worldly-wise can still be taken in stride, no need to beat-to-quarters each time NZ gets poo-poo-ed, it really doesn't look all too dissimilar from outside looking in.

I hope you get some good news soon.
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Old 23rd Jul 2006, 06:32
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If you choose to air your "Industrial Laundry" on a public stage like this, dont get too upset when you attract the jaundice opinion's of the less than "industrially savvy" types this forum traditionally harbours. (you know who!) And for God sake dont actually take any notice!!!

They are usually on the outer of the normal information stream, and lurk here to feel included.

PS: Someone mentioned earlier, an NZ based ATR SIM wouldnt entirely fix the paxing issues....... how is this so ??

Thanks
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Old 23rd Jul 2006, 07:13
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Because it's the cheap kind, not approved for all checks.
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Old 23rd Jul 2006, 23:55
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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Ladies and Gentlemen good luck with your struggle you got both thumbs up from me

If you are expected to travel such distances for your training etc it should be good seats. An airline should pride itself in its treatment of its staff particularly those with the ultimate responsibility for the companies most expensive assets.

Really do people want the situation arise that pilots end up paying for tickets so they can get to pay for their sim sessions. Perhaps they will be able to ask passengers which websites to get good deals on. Me thinks that many passengers would be really impressed to discover the people with their lives in their hands are struggling through sim checks due to fatigue and missing out on many valuable items that are experienced through simulators.

MOR many of those airlines you know of that had their pilots travel 20 plus hours to use simulators were they African airlines or from areas with high risk's and poor safety records? Or was the M6 or M25 just busy those days.

You guys at Mt Cook all the best please do the best you can as many people below you, next to you, and that will follow you will appreciate the stand that you are taking for your T and C's.

For those of you with keen eyes and far superior English than I pick away guys as I have passed the one English test that matters to me and my family.

Kia Kaha
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Old 26th Jul 2006, 03:55
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Well done Waka!

Anymore info????????????????
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Old 27th Jul 2006, 10:11
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Sorry Hanz, Something happened on Wednesday with the ERA (employment relations authority) to see if Mount Cook was part of Air New Zealand or some such Sh@t. This will effect all of the link operators in the next set of negotiations.

Ruling late friday......Watch this space (as they say)

Hope we are all still part of the Koru brand, otherwise just being raped by the master. The old boys talk of ski fields and buses, wonderful business and family to work in. What the F$@k happened.

TIFF
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Old 27th Jul 2006, 10:15
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RIP (The original Mount Cook Airline) Thanks H. W.

Kai Kaha
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Old 31st Jul 2006, 23:48
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Mt Cook and pilots try to bust deadlock

In the Christchurch press today...
Pilots been negotiating since August 2005
On strike work to rule since February, not returning to work on their days off to cover for their sick colleagues.
Airline has cancelled 270 flights
Bargaining now to go to Employment Relations Authority for facilitated bargaining for 'fresh talks'.
Tell me please what difference will this make to the entrenched position that the company has made? Will they now give in to the pilots demands?
Asymetric Pete says "the dispute is about pay and training" also says "its a philosophical debate in negotiations" Philosphical what....does that mean money and giving the pilots the same as other Air New Zealand pilots?
O'Regan would not say how much the dispute had cost the airline. Is it more than the pilot claims? Is it Air New Zealand that is pulling the strings nd why do they want to screw their most productive pilots? Fyfe the knife is rife.......
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Old 1st Aug 2006, 00:21
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Yes we had a quiet day yesterday on the fuel trucks..kinda nice really..all the AA PM flights have been given to Vincent but their call sign is an Air Nelson one..All the normal schedualled Chooks have cancelled next to the flight numbers on our sheets so I guess the strike is really on now.

Good luck chaps
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Old 1st Aug 2006, 01:00
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Stay United..Stay strong

...for those of us who have walked the picket lines,been fourloughed,fired and on strike.....my advice....Stay United,Stay Strong,and believe in yourselves....I and I,m sure everyone,wishes the chook pilot group all the best in these tough times..PB
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