Two biscuits costs Qantas cleaner his job
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The plot thickens!!
Having dealt with a few hundred unfair dismissals I can promise you all that there is going to be much more to this than meets the eye.
It could be that there has been a history of items going "missing" and security was asked to do an "impromptu" bag check to see if they could find anything.
On another note I don't think anyone has assumed this person is guilty. I think the vast majority of opinion is that IF he/she is guilty then there is no sympathy.
As I stated earlier, if the items in question are only the two biscuits then he/she will more than likely win the unfair dismissal claim and get their job back. BUT I think the two oreo story is just the tip of the iceberg.
It could be that there has been a history of items going "missing" and security was asked to do an "impromptu" bag check to see if they could find anything.
On another note I don't think anyone has assumed this person is guilty. I think the vast majority of opinion is that IF he/she is guilty then there is no sympathy.
As I stated earlier, if the items in question are only the two biscuits then he/she will more than likely win the unfair dismissal claim and get their job back. BUT I think the two oreo story is just the tip of the iceberg.
Not enough $$$ ...
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qcc2 - just to fill you in, I sit in front of a computer almost all day. If I bring up PPRuNe every now and then while I'm waiting on hold or am waiting for someone on the other end to carry out an instruction I've given them, or if I've finished all my current tasks, that's my call. My responsibility to my employer is to get a job done. If my looking at PPRuNe was taking up so much time that my work wasn't getting done then yes certainly it would be a real issue, but it's nothing like that. I get emailed when someone replies to a thread I'm subscribed to, so I don't even have to keep the browser window open to check to see if there's any new posts.
My conscience is clear. Your circumstances are different, your experiences determine your conclusion of hypocrisy. Thanks for your concern.
fordran - good to hear an appeal's been lodged, I just hope the union fulfils their responsibility. If they don't or can't then what are they there for anyway?
My conscience is clear. Your circumstances are different, your experiences determine your conclusion of hypocrisy. Thanks for your concern.
fordran - good to hear an appeal's been lodged, I just hope the union fulfils their responsibility. If they don't or can't then what are they there for anyway?
Nunc est bibendum
Originally Posted by Buster Hyman
Now if we lived under the tenet of "An eye, for an eye", all the security guards have to do is go around to his place & take two Monte Carlos! Simple really!
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I used to work in that area and a couple of years ago the Ramp management gave radios and chargers to all team superviosrs to take home. This was because too many things got lost or damaged, basically no one cared for the equipment. As far as I know the company hasn't asked for any back.
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For the resoning impaired, who believe 'theft is theft'- What type of world do you want to create? Have some compassion and understanding. You're not perfect either and one day, when you may do something that could somehow be classified as 'theft', then I hope you get some dim-witted 'regulation reader' make you eat your words.
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Hmm, I wonder if while I am walking down the street and I throw a sandwich i dont want to finish in the bin. Then a homeless guy comes and pulls out the sandwich to eat, can I have the man charged with theft of my sandwich?
As far as I am concerned those biscuits were to be thrown out hence they were garbage. Stealing garbage isnt a crime last time I checked and if it is a crime now then it really shows the sad state of the world today.
Yes theft is theft but show some common sense already! The least QF could have done was give the guy a warning. If he already had warnings then it might be at least a little more reasonable
As far as I am concerned those biscuits were to be thrown out hence they were garbage. Stealing garbage isnt a crime last time I checked and if it is a crime now then it really shows the sad state of the world today.
Yes theft is theft but show some common sense already! The least QF could have done was give the guy a warning. If he already had warnings then it might be at least a little more reasonable
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"This is correct - some cleaners we discussing this on the bus on Sat and mentioned the guy having a battery charger in his bag. Bit different to biccies."
No battery charger buddy. One cleaner was caught with a korjo adapter that may be worth $5 or $10. He admitted to the theft and was sacked on the spot. The guy with the Oreos is another one.
"Having dealt with a few hundred unfair dismissals I can promise you all that there is going to be much more to this than meets the eye."
They were looking for alcohol that has been dissappearing from Mel regularly. They found Oreos. They sacked him and assumed he put them in his bag. They can't prove it.
No battery charger buddy. One cleaner was caught with a korjo adapter that may be worth $5 or $10. He admitted to the theft and was sacked on the spot. The guy with the Oreos is another one.
"Having dealt with a few hundred unfair dismissals I can promise you all that there is going to be much more to this than meets the eye."
They were looking for alcohol that has been dissappearing from Mel regularly. They found Oreos. They sacked him and assumed he put them in his bag. They can't prove it.
Not enough $$$ ...
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DownDraught, you must have missed this from my first post on this thread, easy to do when there's so much to read:
Again, thanks for your concern - your views may apply in your workplace, but not mine.
The Rules I stated are what I do my best to apply to myself, I thought I'd share them here on the off chance that someone else might think they were worth using for themselves. I'm not trying to present myself as some paragon of virtue either ... we are all hypocrites in some way, do you think I'd openly talk about using the internet while at work, thus bringing down cries of "hypocrite", if I was trying to falsely make myself out to be some shining light of moral ethics? I brought it up as an example of what some workplaces allow - my workplace allows it, so leave it at that.
Again - the Rules are what I try to apply to my own life - you don't like them, don't use them - easy.
And I wasn't saying that the person should be punished for stealing two biscuits, I simply said that if the person didn't pay for them, then the biscuits didn't belong to them. I also said it's pretty strange to fire someone over such a trivial thing.
Where I work there's a line in the Employee Handbook that states: The Organisation's resources may be used for personal purposes as long as the use is not excessive.
The Rules I stated are what I do my best to apply to myself, I thought I'd share them here on the off chance that someone else might think they were worth using for themselves. I'm not trying to present myself as some paragon of virtue either ... we are all hypocrites in some way, do you think I'd openly talk about using the internet while at work, thus bringing down cries of "hypocrite", if I was trying to falsely make myself out to be some shining light of moral ethics? I brought it up as an example of what some workplaces allow - my workplace allows it, so leave it at that.
Again - the Rules are what I try to apply to my own life - you don't like them, don't use them - easy.
And I wasn't saying that the person should be punished for stealing two biscuits, I simply said that if the person didn't pay for them, then the biscuits didn't belong to them. I also said it's pretty strange to fire someone over such a trivial thing.
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Originally Posted by fordran
No battery charger buddy. One cleaner was caught with a korjo adapter that may be worth $5 or $10. He admitted to the theft and was sacked on the spot. The guy with the Oreos is another one.
In your original post you said:
A Melbourne cleaner was sacked from the great Australian airline yesterday over the alleged theft of 2 biscuits
Two other cleaners were questioned on the same day over Qantas property found in their bags and accepted the offer by the airline to resign on the spot.
One would hope after 100s of unfair dismissal cases you would have your facts straight.
2 resigned, one sacked in your words, so how were oreo man and battery charger boy both sacked?
And if battery charger boy was sacked then oero man resigned and that's not unfair dismissal is it?
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Addressing the initial issue of employees 'stealing' food that is to be thrown away anyway.... and what constitutes 'stealing'.....
I once worked for a company that had a big problem with catering/crew meals etc going missing... they decided to have a set area aside for 'take what you want'... anything that was unable to be used again on another flight and would normally be thrown away would be put in here, anything in there was fair game for anyone wishing to take it home... get caught taking anything from anywhere else and suffer the consequences....!
Surely QF could have some sort of way of doing this... everyone knows groundies/rampers etc scrounge the biccies on turnaround... at least if there was some way they could 'control' what the ground staff (and others) take, then the problem would likely be reduced a great deal... people would feel they can have 'something'... without the problem of knowing 'what' to take... and the company would know that only the 'leftovers' were being taken...
I once worked for a company that had a big problem with catering/crew meals etc going missing... they decided to have a set area aside for 'take what you want'... anything that was unable to be used again on another flight and would normally be thrown away would be put in here, anything in there was fair game for anyone wishing to take it home... get caught taking anything from anywhere else and suffer the consequences....!
Surely QF could have some sort of way of doing this... everyone knows groundies/rampers etc scrounge the biccies on turnaround... at least if there was some way they could 'control' what the ground staff (and others) take, then the problem would likely be reduced a great deal... people would feel they can have 'something'... without the problem of knowing 'what' to take... and the company would know that only the 'leftovers' were being taken...
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Principle of proportionality comes into it (or is that just EU law?).
You're all right, theft is theft but there is the argument that if a firm pursues heavy-handed policies, it is not exactly the best way to promote staff co-operation generally. That firm's management can kiss goodbye any form of substantive staff-led cost-saving (like turning lights off, printing on both sides of the paper, little things that properly motivated staff would think to do of their own volition, which save a damn sight more than a couple of oreos).
Then there's the cost of the action itself. There are administrative costs associated with processing a worker's dismissal. Then the firm will still need someone to do the sacked person's job, so the firm will have to carry the cost of recruiting the replacement (unless they don't replace, in which case he might have an action for unfair dismissal as it was effectively a redundancy so he'd probably qualify for more lolly as a payout).
Shareholders might be within their rights to ask about the origin of this policy at the AGM as it would appear from the above that it is costing the company money. If that's the case, then if it can be traced back to a director, then maybe that director's position may be untenable as they appear not to be fulfilling their statutory duty to look after the company's affairs to the best interests of its shareholders; in fact they are actively working against shareholder's interests by pursuing a policy under which it can reasonably foreseen that there will be a net cost to the company.
And if they couldn't see that there would be a net cost to the company, then perhaps there is an argument that that director has either been negligent or is simply unfit to be a director.
I am not condoning theft here; merely asking, what is the purpose behind the blanket policy? I agree there should be some sanction against the staff member. The idea of a threshold for disciplinary action was mentioned earlier; that threshold should be, the cost to the firm. Knicking a biscuit? Loss of some privilege and a mark on the person's record, to stand against them in the event of future disciplinary proceedings. Knocking off (say) a bottle of First bubbly? Greater loss of privileges and docked pay to recover. Taking (say) cash or MCOs or some item of hardware? Out the door, possible police report. Staff would understand this and, most likely, co-operate. The relevant union would not be able to argue against it.
You're all right, theft is theft but there is the argument that if a firm pursues heavy-handed policies, it is not exactly the best way to promote staff co-operation generally. That firm's management can kiss goodbye any form of substantive staff-led cost-saving (like turning lights off, printing on both sides of the paper, little things that properly motivated staff would think to do of their own volition, which save a damn sight more than a couple of oreos).
Then there's the cost of the action itself. There are administrative costs associated with processing a worker's dismissal. Then the firm will still need someone to do the sacked person's job, so the firm will have to carry the cost of recruiting the replacement (unless they don't replace, in which case he might have an action for unfair dismissal as it was effectively a redundancy so he'd probably qualify for more lolly as a payout).
Shareholders might be within their rights to ask about the origin of this policy at the AGM as it would appear from the above that it is costing the company money. If that's the case, then if it can be traced back to a director, then maybe that director's position may be untenable as they appear not to be fulfilling their statutory duty to look after the company's affairs to the best interests of its shareholders; in fact they are actively working against shareholder's interests by pursuing a policy under which it can reasonably foreseen that there will be a net cost to the company.
And if they couldn't see that there would be a net cost to the company, then perhaps there is an argument that that director has either been negligent or is simply unfit to be a director.
I am not condoning theft here; merely asking, what is the purpose behind the blanket policy? I agree there should be some sanction against the staff member. The idea of a threshold for disciplinary action was mentioned earlier; that threshold should be, the cost to the firm. Knicking a biscuit? Loss of some privilege and a mark on the person's record, to stand against them in the event of future disciplinary proceedings. Knocking off (say) a bottle of First bubbly? Greater loss of privileges and docked pay to recover. Taking (say) cash or MCOs or some item of hardware? Out the door, possible police report. Staff would understand this and, most likely, co-operate. The relevant union would not be able to argue against it.
This topic is interesting.
A couple of years ago, I was extremely poor (new job meant relocation costs had me sleeping in my car in a regional town until first pay day). I didnt advertise this at the time (was embarrasing), but a few of my crew clicked on.
I got home one night after 5 sectors (to the quiet spot I had found on the side of the road) and discovered two sick bags full of cheese and biccies in my bag. (not quite as bad as chappelles case I know)...
At the time, I wasnt eating outside of work (couldnt afford it), so the only meals I had were the ones i could scavange on the plane at work.
I worked for a pretty relaxed company - but if someone else puts it in my bag is it theft?
I did learn my lesson about taking crew meals home a couple months later, when the thai chicken noodles I took home (when i had a home finally) and reheated for brekky gave me dreadful food poisoning which saw me pulled off duty upline, and collapse in a taxi. (the hotel manager and cab driver carried me up to my room!).
A couple of years ago, I was extremely poor (new job meant relocation costs had me sleeping in my car in a regional town until first pay day). I didnt advertise this at the time (was embarrasing), but a few of my crew clicked on.
I got home one night after 5 sectors (to the quiet spot I had found on the side of the road) and discovered two sick bags full of cheese and biccies in my bag. (not quite as bad as chappelles case I know)...
At the time, I wasnt eating outside of work (couldnt afford it), so the only meals I had were the ones i could scavange on the plane at work.
I worked for a pretty relaxed company - but if someone else puts it in my bag is it theft?
I did learn my lesson about taking crew meals home a couple months later, when the thai chicken noodles I took home (when i had a home finally) and reheated for brekky gave me dreadful food poisoning which saw me pulled off duty upline, and collapse in a taxi. (the hotel manager and cab driver carried me up to my room!).
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To all those who agree that the cleaner should be sacked for taking 2 biscuits ,I think we should also bring in some other measures to stop the rot within our society.
I was wrong about him stealing 2 biscuits ,next it will be a sachet of suger or maybe even a half eaten muffin...where will it stop..
For those who have committed heinous crimes such as littering, crossing the road without a green light and wearing Ugg boots in public we could have public hangings every Friday in front of Town Hall.
We could bring back stoning for serious crimes such as late payment of parking fines and for mis-use of office pens as well as wearing sun glasses inside buildings.
Further punishment for other criminal acts such as arriving late for work could be dealt with by feeding them to the Lions at Taronga Park Zoo. Some of the old deterrents favoured by the Romans worked a treat and should be re-evaluated in this modern day not only to punish criminals but to provide entertainment for the masses.
Don’t start me on those whom cannot spell correctly regardless of whether they are in a correctional facility or not as well as politicians or those people whose mobile phones ring in the movies. The value of public floggings, beheading and other forms of physiotherapy are played down and should be re-instated.
We have to act now or society as we know it is doomed
I was wrong about him stealing 2 biscuits ,next it will be a sachet of suger or maybe even a half eaten muffin...where will it stop..
For those who have committed heinous crimes such as littering, crossing the road without a green light and wearing Ugg boots in public we could have public hangings every Friday in front of Town Hall.
We could bring back stoning for serious crimes such as late payment of parking fines and for mis-use of office pens as well as wearing sun glasses inside buildings.
Further punishment for other criminal acts such as arriving late for work could be dealt with by feeding them to the Lions at Taronga Park Zoo. Some of the old deterrents favoured by the Romans worked a treat and should be re-evaluated in this modern day not only to punish criminals but to provide entertainment for the masses.
Don’t start me on those whom cannot spell correctly regardless of whether they are in a correctional facility or not as well as politicians or those people whose mobile phones ring in the movies. The value of public floggings, beheading and other forms of physiotherapy are played down and should be re-instated.
We have to act now or society as we know it is doomed
Last edited by lowerlobe; 30th Jan 2006 at 21:34.
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OK then for all those out there who believe that stealing rubbish is all right, what about this question.
How do we know the biscuits were not taken from the Galley? Could they have been used on the next flight? Were they rubbish at all?
I know it sounds stupid and excessive to sack someone for two biscuits (and it is really, as I have stated previously) but the company has to ensure that theft is limited as much as possible.
A warning in this case (provided facts as reported are close to the truth) would have been more appropriate but when the loss control guys get their blood up there is little anyone can do to stop them.
How do we know the biscuits were not taken from the Galley? Could they have been used on the next flight? Were they rubbish at all?
I know it sounds stupid and excessive to sack someone for two biscuits (and it is really, as I have stated previously) but the company has to ensure that theft is limited as much as possible.
A warning in this case (provided facts as reported are close to the truth) would have been more appropriate but when the loss control guys get their blood up there is little anyone can do to stop them.
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Myself and others have tried to explain that the Oreo's are give aways and are basically free advertising that the company does not pay for..
They are one time only and not to be used for company stores,if any are found they are thrown out along with all the other usual rubbish..
They are not stored in the gally and never have...
they are given out in the snack in Q bags as a mid flight snack..
If he had one hundred of them and was selling them a some market on the weekend then that is different because he is gaining financially and or commercially from the removal and sale of said Oreo's but if he was just taking one packet for morning tea and that packet has no commercial value to the company then I don't believe it was stealing at all...it was rubbish...
They are one time only and not to be used for company stores,if any are found they are thrown out along with all the other usual rubbish..
They are not stored in the gally and never have...
they are given out in the snack in Q bags as a mid flight snack..
If he had one hundred of them and was selling them a some market on the weekend then that is different because he is gaining financially and or commercially from the removal and sale of said Oreo's but if he was just taking one packet for morning tea and that packet has no commercial value to the company then I don't believe it was stealing at all...it was rubbish...
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Ok so they are rubbish. I get the picture.
But the employee is still not authorised to take anything from the aircraft for their own personal use. Where do you draw the line.
But the employee is still not authorised to take anything from the aircraft for their own personal use. Where do you draw the line.
Has the world gone mad?
In the words of Eric Bana: “This is a shimozzle!”
If it was only to biscuits the guy took and there was no prior history, get over this nonsense give the guy his job back before this costs Qantas a fortune - and while they are at it perhaps instigate some of the ideas put forward here so as to put the first foot of rudder in this flat spin engagement is in, a spin that will need someone like CB at the controls off to recover anyhow...
In the words of Eric Bana: “This is a shimozzle!”
If it was only to biscuits the guy took and there was no prior history, get over this nonsense give the guy his job back before this costs Qantas a fortune - and while they are at it perhaps instigate some of the ideas put forward here so as to put the first foot of rudder in this flat spin engagement is in, a spin that will need someone like CB at the controls off to recover anyhow...
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QF doesn't work like that
e.g. i was asked to sit in on a mediation (work cover) regarding a workers compensation claim. the claim manager and legal guy came from interstate . the whole meeting took 2 minutes. by that time they admitted liability and promised to pay the costs.it was all about around $400.-. now add the costs. 2 j/class tickets morning arrival late afternoon return flight(i checked their arrival/ departure through a mate), claim for lunch, have a nice day in town. thats how qf works.