Heros doing heros
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Perth
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Heros doing heros
So I believe the Impulse heros at Jet* have been screwed by ex ansett heros for commands.
Direct entry ex ansett FO heros have been given commands a head of long time Impules heros.
This is after putting 20 Jetconnect guys out of work.
What a great bunch of people.
Sleep well Heros.
Direct entry ex ansett FO heros have been given commands a head of long time Impules heros.
This is after putting 20 Jetconnect guys out of work.
What a great bunch of people.
Sleep well Heros.
And it gets better, some of the ex An hero's offering to crew A330's for 'just a little' more than their current very low A320 salary. A race to the bottom indeed. No wonder kids don't look up as airliners fly over anymore.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: here
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gee...well let me see, there are the Jet* Heros, and the ex Ansett Heros, there are the Impulse Heros, but none of the JitConnict Guys are Heros...hmmmm.
There is a little birdie that tells me that there are a few Heros in JitConnict as well, ohhhh, I think that the Heros are Expanding all over the place, its wonderful to be a Hero.
I would say that 146 and Karunch are the old Heros or would be Heros if they could be Heros, but one fact is that there is honour amongs thieves, be that what it may.
What is that great show on the ABC..."We All Can Be Heros".
There is a little birdie that tells me that there are a few Heros in JitConnict as well, ohhhh, I think that the Heros are Expanding all over the place, its wonderful to be a Hero.
I would say that 146 and Karunch are the old Heros or would be Heros if they could be Heros, but one fact is that there is honour amongs thieves, be that what it may.
What is that great show on the ABC..."We All Can Be Heros".
Well what can I say. You reap what you sow. It seems the " Ï'm all right thanks jack" mentality is still alive and well in the industry, with the pilot community having been reduced to a mad rabble clawing over each other for the crumbs. One group squealing like stuck pigs over percieved injusticess yet quick as a flash they would do exactly the same if it was to their own benefit.
Is one group jumping the que to a command on the wonderjet any different to the same or similar group displacing GA pilots in the great dispute. Their jobs didnt matter as their were only a piston driver(insert type as applicable). But where was the outcry then, or now, what are ex 737 captains doing flying night frieght in Chieftains. I dont hear any Airline drivers or Unions etc standing up and saying its not right.
Its no wonder the various airlines managements think the pilots are aasy to divide and conquor, they are too busy fighting each other. The only way forward is to unite and act as one, defend the wages and conditions of ALL professional pilots be it a lowly Grade 3 Instructor to a 744 C& T Captain.
By all means, make noise when injustice is deemd, but dont commit the same crime unto others. Failure to act as one body will ultimately mean individual contracts for EVERY pilot. 50% less than you're on now, take it or leave it.
Is one group jumping the que to a command on the wonderjet any different to the same or similar group displacing GA pilots in the great dispute. Their jobs didnt matter as their were only a piston driver(insert type as applicable). But where was the outcry then, or now, what are ex 737 captains doing flying night frieght in Chieftains. I dont hear any Airline drivers or Unions etc standing up and saying its not right.
Its no wonder the various airlines managements think the pilots are aasy to divide and conquor, they are too busy fighting each other. The only way forward is to unite and act as one, defend the wages and conditions of ALL professional pilots be it a lowly Grade 3 Instructor to a 744 C& T Captain.
By all means, make noise when injustice is deemd, but dont commit the same crime unto others. Failure to act as one body will ultimately mean individual contracts for EVERY pilot. 50% less than you're on now, take it or leave it.
Last edited by Guptar; 28th Sep 2005 at 15:51.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: The Real World (TRW)
Posts: 159
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It seems that management are the suckers here.
Why did they offer them 'just a little' more than their current very low A320 salary, when they could have offered them a little LESS, and they still would have been swamped?
And yes, there were quite a few "heroes" in Jit Connict, who qualified in Australia, or in the Ansett N.Z dispute.
Scobs screwing scobs.
Ain't it fun to watch.
Why did they offer them 'just a little' more than their current very low A320 salary, when they could have offered them a little LESS, and they still would have been swamped?
And yes, there were quite a few "heroes" in Jit Connict, who qualified in Australia, or in the Ansett N.Z dispute.
Scobs screwing scobs.
Ain't it fun to watch.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Getting there..!
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There are also a lot of guys that work for Jetconnect that don't fall into the above category that could be screwed as well. Is it also "Fun to watch" just to be able to gloat over a few of your despised ones falling? Lets not stoop to that level eh guys or you will be no better yourselves.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Yes Guptar, very true!
But what is this "jumping the que" crap that people use?
I have heard this expression regarding experienced players from overseas wanting to come to Oz; bugsmasher drivers then bleating "join the que".
Unless there exists a contractual datal seniority system, then there is no "que".
Perhaps Expanding et al would like to consider that these new captains at Jet * have significant experience and competance for the job?
But what is this "jumping the que" crap that people use?
I have heard this expression regarding experienced players from overseas wanting to come to Oz; bugsmasher drivers then bleating "join the que".
Unless there exists a contractual datal seniority system, then there is no "que".
Perhaps Expanding et al would like to consider that these new captains at Jet * have significant experience and competance for the job?
Last edited by Ralph the Bong; 29th Sep 2005 at 08:23.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: australia
Posts: 136
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, I have looked it up and the correct term is heroes.... with an "e". That being a brave or valiant person.
"Heros", without the "e" is however and most appropriately, was the ancient greek god of stabbing people in the back with a razor sharp dagger whilst smiling at them at the same time for no apparent reason.
OK, continue to rant at will angry ones..............
"Heros", without the "e" is however and most appropriately, was the ancient greek god of stabbing people in the back with a razor sharp dagger whilst smiling at them at the same time for no apparent reason.
OK, continue to rant at will angry ones..............
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: here
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some one told me once that "your only as good as the company you fly for" after that god help you as the heroes out there are only to happy stab you in the back as much as look at you to get an advantage.
Ask any of the heroes that are legends in their own lunch boxes, why don't they quit their phoney baloney jobs and apply to someone else, see how far they get, I bet they secretly pray every day that their bull**** company doesn't fall over, as they know how the heroes operate, the knives are big and sharp, and there will just be a blood bath.
No other profession treats its people like this one, where a 35 year F/O and Captain with experience on the equipment that are operated by Jet* VB or QF for that matter can't even get a look in, be lucky to get a job being a hangar sweeper.
What a pathetic profession, where snotty nosed heroes would have a Chief Pilot with years of experience join below the lowest hero because of a merger. Where ex Ansett people with loads of experience can't get a look in to Jet* and VB because the heroes recon it all belongs to them and they know better.
I presume the ACB, AFL, NRL and others use this method to recruit their people, where only being in the lowest common denominator is the criteria.
So the next time you need dental work or a Cardiologist to do a transplant then get a snotty nosed hero, because if you ask him he will tell you what a hero he is.
Ask any of the heroes that are legends in their own lunch boxes, why don't they quit their phoney baloney jobs and apply to someone else, see how far they get, I bet they secretly pray every day that their bull**** company doesn't fall over, as they know how the heroes operate, the knives are big and sharp, and there will just be a blood bath.
No other profession treats its people like this one, where a 35 year F/O and Captain with experience on the equipment that are operated by Jet* VB or QF for that matter can't even get a look in, be lucky to get a job being a hangar sweeper.
What a pathetic profession, where snotty nosed heroes would have a Chief Pilot with years of experience join below the lowest hero because of a merger. Where ex Ansett people with loads of experience can't get a look in to Jet* and VB because the heroes recon it all belongs to them and they know better.
I presume the ACB, AFL, NRL and others use this method to recruit their people, where only being in the lowest common denominator is the criteria.
So the next time you need dental work or a Cardiologist to do a transplant then get a snotty nosed hero, because if you ask him he will tell you what a hero he is.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: negative RAIM.....
Posts: 329
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"The Que"
This antiquainted communist / socialist view that promotion is derived from start date is unfortunately alive it seems.
Why should a person be promoted over someone else purely due to a start date? Why should it not go to the better suited applicant? Does flying skill, experinece (on type and other), professionalism and airmanship not come into? No it seems - just based on a date, full stop.
The sad fact of life is that different airlines have differing cultures, good, bad or indifferent. What works for one (or so it seems for them) doesn't work for another. You don't like where you are, leave.
There is (unfortunately) a place for unions - the need to bow down or force the issue of the lowest common denominator will always be needed.
Not meant to be a wind up - but I'm sure it'll raise some heated comments. Again, just my view and no one said I am right. (but I believe so!). Just an opinion that anyone is welcomed to disagree with.
Why should a person be promoted over someone else purely due to a start date? Why should it not go to the better suited applicant? Does flying skill, experinece (on type and other), professionalism and airmanship not come into? No it seems - just based on a date, full stop.
The sad fact of life is that different airlines have differing cultures, good, bad or indifferent. What works for one (or so it seems for them) doesn't work for another. You don't like where you are, leave.
There is (unfortunately) a place for unions - the need to bow down or force the issue of the lowest common denominator will always be needed.
Not meant to be a wind up - but I'm sure it'll raise some heated comments. Again, just my view and no one said I am right. (but I believe so!). Just an opinion that anyone is welcomed to disagree with.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Dead right Yorick, datal seniority is a concept whose time has come and gone.
The only criteria for promotion should be and must be merit. Time in the company would be only one component of 'merit' , which should also include qualifications, experience and job performance.
The industry has change over the last 20 years and outmoded promotional systems such as datal seniority simply have no place in contemporary flight operations. Datal seniority is a concept that simply is not supported by ANY respected resource managment philosophy.
The only criteria for promotion should be and must be merit. Time in the company would be only one component of 'merit' , which should also include qualifications, experience and job performance.
The industry has change over the last 20 years and outmoded promotional systems such as datal seniority simply have no place in contemporary flight operations. Datal seniority is a concept that simply is not supported by ANY respected resource managment philosophy.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: The Real World (TRW)
Posts: 159
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why should a person be promoted over someone else purely due to a start date?
Why should it not go to the better suited applicant?
Does flying skill, experinece (on type and other), professionalism and airmanship not come into?
No it seems - just based on a date, full stop.
Even with post 1989 Ansett, length of service in the company was used as the basis for future promotion - which suited the Heros just fine, once they`d secured their place by other means.
S G
Guest
Posts: n/a
Not doing too bad mate. 
HIer, the process at Ansett was 'qualifications and experience'. This was writen into the Admin. manual.
Bloggs old boy, a proper set of promotional policies would make it pointless to suck up to the Boss. A professional approach would obviate any brown nosing.
Seniority only makes sense in companies that employ people who all have the same skills and aptitudes when joining. However, as this is rarely the case, seniority is as logical a promotional mechanism as, say, the candidates star sign or favourate sporting heroes. The merger of airlines in Canada resulted in very junior FOs becoming 'senior' to C&T captains. The problem of loss of industry knowledge and other CRM issues should be obvious to even the most brain-dead of the supporters of datal seniority.
There exists some rationale for the practice in a large company where it takes many years for crew to become fully conversant with the companies operation and procedures. Even then, this sole rationale is on fairly shaky ground from perspective of optimal use of human resources; its main benefit from a company and pilot body perspective is convenience.
Note that the longer that you are in a company, the more that one supports datal seniority. I agree that it takes some time to become fully conversant with a company's culture and procedures and that there is good reason to spend some time in a junior position until one is ready. This time spent in a junior role would and should be part of 'merit'.
There are many Ansett guys all over the globe at many companies who have been expedited to command because they were well trained and good at their work. Who benefits from this? The company, the shareholder and the travelling public. The obvious benefit is that those with "qualifications and experience" can more rapidly add their "qualifications and experience" to the operating culture of the company.
The more inexperienced pilots who fly with them benefit from gaining additional knowledge by flying with other pilots who are more experienced and better qualified.
The debate on seniority has been going on since the 1920's. The concept has had many famous and well regarded critics, such as Ernest K Gann who said "seniority protects the weak". Green field companies (Virgin Blue etc) dont use datal seniority for these very reasons. The companies that do have had this system built into their industrial award over many years and would be difficult to abolish, so they persist with it.
HIer, the process at Ansett was 'qualifications and experience'. This was writen into the Admin. manual.
Bloggs old boy, a proper set of promotional policies would make it pointless to suck up to the Boss. A professional approach would obviate any brown nosing.
Seniority only makes sense in companies that employ people who all have the same skills and aptitudes when joining. However, as this is rarely the case, seniority is as logical a promotional mechanism as, say, the candidates star sign or favourate sporting heroes. The merger of airlines in Canada resulted in very junior FOs becoming 'senior' to C&T captains. The problem of loss of industry knowledge and other CRM issues should be obvious to even the most brain-dead of the supporters of datal seniority.
There exists some rationale for the practice in a large company where it takes many years for crew to become fully conversant with the companies operation and procedures. Even then, this sole rationale is on fairly shaky ground from perspective of optimal use of human resources; its main benefit from a company and pilot body perspective is convenience.
Note that the longer that you are in a company, the more that one supports datal seniority. I agree that it takes some time to become fully conversant with a company's culture and procedures and that there is good reason to spend some time in a junior position until one is ready. This time spent in a junior role would and should be part of 'merit'.
There are many Ansett guys all over the globe at many companies who have been expedited to command because they were well trained and good at their work. Who benefits from this? The company, the shareholder and the travelling public. The obvious benefit is that those with "qualifications and experience" can more rapidly add their "qualifications and experience" to the operating culture of the company.
The more inexperienced pilots who fly with them benefit from gaining additional knowledge by flying with other pilots who are more experienced and better qualified.
The debate on seniority has been going on since the 1920's. The concept has had many famous and well regarded critics, such as Ernest K Gann who said "seniority protects the weak". Green field companies (Virgin Blue etc) dont use datal seniority for these very reasons. The companies that do have had this system built into their industrial award over many years and would be difficult to abolish, so they persist with it.
Last edited by Ralph the Bong; 29th Sep 2005 at 08:39.
Right guys, hands up all those bleating here who have EVER turned down a promotion on the basis of "No, give it to Bloggs, he's been here longer then me".
Bottums Up
I wonder how many Ansett (or QF or most other airlines) pilots would have accepted being passed over for a command chance because their employer had access to people more qualified on type, particularly the introduction of a new type?
Guest
Posts: n/a
The answer to that Claret is this: Plenty. All pilots at Ansett had access to a grievence process if they were passed over for promotion. What they were usually told was along the lines of ( as I was once) : "You have 4500 hrs of which 1500 hrs is airline time. The successful candidate has 9500 hrs of which 6000 hrs is airline time and he has 1500 multi-crew command. You are simply not going to get a command ahead of him simply because you have been here 4 months more than him. Any other questions FO Bong?"
What we think is 'fair' and what is objective are often 2 different things.
What we think is 'fair' and what is objective are often 2 different things.