Four Corners

[Woomera]

J430. You may be correct about chartering the C208, as some filming was from the front RH seat.

I have no idea who is operating the service - I am a long, long way away from FNQ! My interest was purely academic.

Woomera

[Mainframe]

J430

The two C208's were chartered for the transport of the deceased.

The 4C crew did not charter a C208.

The C208 has been frequently conducting the service, and although only has a single engine,
it does have TAWS, the next best thing to EGPWS.

MF

[YBRM]

Just goes to show that if your cunning enough, you can hide just about anything from CASA. It's amazing how many people in this industry (in particular managers) have become comfortable with talking out of their freakin' as****es, as long as it looks and sounds right on paper.

Also goes to prove how really out of touch CASA is with the industry , and how far gone aviation is in comparison to other professions. We all know that this is just the tip of the iceberg folks.

21 grand a year......................that's bull

[Lisag]

Captain Paul Norris

Hi I'm Paul Norris' wife Fiona and the reason I revealed Paul's salary with Aero-Tropics of $21,000 was in the hope that pilots get angry (if you're not already) about your conditions and so that the general public are made aware of the wages that pilots are being subjected to to. The general public seem to have no idea what pilots are earning, except maybe Qantas pilots. My husband Paul worked extremely hard for this salary, flying a Twin Engine Islander from Horn Island with numerous take off's and landings, unloading freight and then washing the aircraft at the end of his shift - all because he had a dream to fly and one day hopefully earn a real wage which would compensate him for all he had sacrificed. He obviously had my full support emotionally and financially which is why he was able to chase his dream.
After all the money that is spent on training to gain these qualifications, is it then fair to get paid less then someone working in a shop - no it's disgusting and I'm frankly sick of hearing that it's all part of the apprentice - so if I can do anything in my husbands memory besides finding out what ultimately caused that Metro to crash, I hope that I can improve conditions for pilots earning their stripes.
Fiona Norris

[Woomera]

Mainframe. The AOC clearly specifies RPT operations in C208 aircraft between Bloomfield, Cairns, Dunk Island and Lizard Island only - no more, no less, no Cairns - Bamaga. Therefore I assume the film fottage was "generic".

YBRM. Disgusting!!! Perhaps other twin engine aircraft pilots from the same company may care to confirm or deny the allegation this operator is not honoring it's obligation under the relevent Pilot's Award? Perhaps Aero Tropics may care to comment?

Some years ago I heard of an operator who based unpaid pilots in Cape York to fly C206 and P68 aircraft, then charged them $10 per day accommodation. One of those pilots, who could not afford the "rent" slept in the back of a utility for some months whilst flying long hours in clapped out aircraft.

Fiona

Welcome to PPRuNe. On behalf of our members world wide and particularly here in Australia, our sincere condolences for your tragic and sad loss. Our thoughts are with you.

I found this evenings Four Corners program excellent journalism and your comments extremely focused, relevant and poignant - a credit to you! Had the program drawn conclusions it would have preempted the ATSB investigation and jeopardised the program\'s credibility.

It is time that both the general public and those in this industry became aware of the atrocious and illegal wages being paid to - and not being paid at all - to GA pilots in Australia. Sadly few are willing to risk their careers filing complaints with the relevant industrial relations authority. I trust you at least will file an action for recovery of unpaid wages, not only on behalf of your husband, but the hundreds of other pilots in Australia who are being exploited whilst chasing their dreams.

Welcome to PPRuNe. Our heart is with you........

Woomera

[7gcbc]

exactly right Woomera, my wife commented on how many of the "working" pilots wanted to remain anon.

Basically, to call a spade a spade, they'd get fired if their identity was known, it is a sad reflection that a guy with a couple o'thousand logged , in hard work , crap conditions, hard IMC, does not get a chance to voice ......................odd to be sure

I smell a CPA/Accountant somewhere, and I have a problem with this,,,,,,,,

where is my rifle ?

[Casper]

* A C208 is NOT being used on the CNS - Bamaga RPT service.
* GA pilot wages ARE disgraceful. They always have been.
* Despite the claim on 4C that CASA audits are mainly paperwork exercises, the most recent audit of Transair included surveillance on every RPT sector, the Bamaga route included.
* SOME current GPS/NPA approaches under SOME cockpit presentations leave much to be desired.

[J430]

GA conditions generally

Lisag (Fiona)

Your contribution to 4C last night would make your husband proud, well done.

To open the debate a little wider on pilot conditions, take it to include instructors also, they are pilots too, they also get paid a pittance for training those who carry passengers wether it be a PPL, CPL or ATPL. Their rates of pay are often, when averaged out, even worse than $21K to$31K as mentioned.

How many more have to pay the highest price before this whole aspect of aviation is looked at. (Not presuming that pay rates caused the accident, its just an injustice along the way).

J

Lisag... check your PM

PS Check the GA Forum and read "Advice for a Newbee Please" pay problems are rife!

[The Voice]

I watched the programme, but felt like the journo presenting it was the wrong one. Not that the presentation was inadequate, just that with all the other expose's that Chris McMasters has completed in this wacky world of aviation, maybe he'd have done a slightly better job.

I felt as if there was something lacking, that it wasn't 'punchy' enough. Perhaps it was the percepetion created by this thread the last few days.

I too, Fiona, congratulate you on fighting the good fight in Paul's memory. You are very eloquent and he would indeed be proud. To let the media in at this time is a pretty gutsy move.

Behind every good man, is a great woman.

[peuce]

I thought it was a bit rich for Bruce Gemmell (CASA) to say, can't remember the exact words ... but along the lines of .. " it's a shame that pilot error has caused the deaths of 15 people ... it shouldn't be tolerated"

I apologise if I've got that wrong ... but that was my recollection. And if I have it correct... then why bother completing the ATSB investigation?

Postscript:
This is what was actually said

BRUCE GEMMELL: "Certainly human error can be factor. We try and get a look at how is it that a human error like that occurred. Was the training inadequate? Was the oversight arrangements inadequate? What was it? Human error, when the travelling public's involved, is not really good enough."

[Mainframe]

Casper,

You are correct on a technicality. the C208 is not "CURRENTLY" being used on the Cairns Bamaga run.

However, the "marketing arm" or "ticket seller" did use it and another non rpt aircraft quite frequently
to continue to provide the service that they didn't really provide after the crash that they didn't have.

All flights meticulously indexed ready for the inquiry that probably won't happen.

CASA is far too busy on other matters of impending safety potential to notice very much at all.

J430

CASA doesn't check with pilots if they're paid properly, they only see a paid accountants statement
to verify "financial viability". If a company can't pay it's pilots properly, what else can't they afford?

Safety is expensive, accidents however, are usually more expensive.

[Bill Smith]

Maybe there should be an independent financial audit done before AOC's are issued.
It could, possibly, be determined that a lot of these shonky's are not financially viable.
Then Accountants can do wonderful things with numbers can't they? So we would probably be back to the same situation.
Pilots should stop denigrating themselves and start taking a little pride in what we do.
Stop under cutting each other for the odd hour or two of multi time.
You don't see other professions doing this to each other.
Stick together and demand to be renumerated appropriately.

[Uncommon Sense]

Let me inject some hypothetical - some of which I know will not be well received by our vocal right-leaning contributors, but so be it.

As an 'individual' what negotiation power do you have to:

a. get paid a fair salary / wage?

b. actually get paid on time, or in some cases at all?

..especially in an environment where one is too scared of losing their job to confront management on issues that may contribute to them losing their lives?

I don't mean to turn this tragedy in to a political argument, but it is a topic for the times we live in with the right for association under great threat. Does anyone disagree that the ability for individual pilots to ensure a fair wage outcome is a dismal failure?

The 'apprenticeship' line is ridiculous if only 1 in 10 make it through to an airline type of salary - that is not an apprenticeship, that is a gamble - one that leads to exploitation.

Do I have a solution? Only a hypothetical, and most likely unworkable one.

Associate.

As a member of the association, abide by your rules and don't undercut each other for work - yes, I can hear the laughing from here - I have been there too - but what other solution is there?
The war of '89 has left a bad taste that lingers - but that was a long time ago, and the country we live in has changed remarkably. What has not changed - except deteriorated - is the conditions for the new GA pilot.

Only by collectively insisting on a fair outcome can you have any power to decide how you provide your skills to the compnaies that need them - and they do need them.

Yes - costs will go up for the companies. Perhaps they should. As was mentioned in 4C - air services to remote areas in our country should be treated as an essentialinfrastructure - just like phone lines. (As should the ATC system - not a cash cow). So the government expenditure should account for this essential infrastructure - perhaps they could trim down their Government Advertising expenditure to pay for it?

Or think mmore carefully before re-arranging our airspace system on the follied notion of saving money for our regional operators?

I have seen how good, safe GA companies operate - and they charge high prices for their services. And Government pays for it - infact they insist on a high level of compliance, aircraft standard, pilot minimums and maintenance standards, before they will let government employees travel on business with these operators - so why does the government not insist upon the same standards for the public at large?

Why is it ok for GA companies to undercut each other to the bone - often in to definite loss - and CASA sits back and watches?

A double standard? I think so.

[gaunty]

Uncommon Sense as usual

The next step is to teach the Government users to teach the operators that if they lift their game into the 21st Century insofar as equipment is concerned, they will pay the money.

They have no other options.

Clunker C90s killing your irreplaceable and priceless top medical men seems counterproductive to me.

To do that, they will have to find someone within or without who actually understands what it all means.

BTW how many of the passengers were Govt employees or in some way dependent on Government support? There is a message in there somewhere.

[puff]

I for one was very impressed with the story, for once the media has fairly accurately reported the facts of the true state of this industry.

I'm not sure what it's going to take before the industry as a whole stands up and says this is enough, why is it that pilots 'accept' that their hard earned licenses, endorsments etc are 'worth' 21K in a remote area, if that operator cannot afford to pay it's pilots what they deserve(an award wage), then why continue to operate, they could obviously afford to pay more, but why would they bother when the pilots accept it.

Other operators use the RHS of their aircraft as a money making machine, fail to have a serviceable autopilot(saves $$), get them to pay for an endorsement(makes $$$), then promise them all limited amounts of time of 'paid' work, give them that then they get someone else through the door. Flying schools use the same ways but putting on casuals, expecting them to do marketing, answer phones, wash planes and only get paid when they fly. Most of them have to work night jobs, and a lot of them are half asleep at the schools due to lack of sleep.....next to that half of them have less than 300 hours training someone else how to fly.

The government, operators and pilots themselves are killing this industry, which group will stand up and try and stop it, guarantee it won't be the pilots.

[NAMPS]

For those that missed it, the transcript is here

I thought the program was impressive. The lack of "punchiness" some posters alluded to may be because of the balance of the report. An example - LW had allegations put to him and he answered them. The ABC acknowleged positive reports of Transair operations.

There are a number of factors to consider when judging a report such as this. The first is that there is an ongoing ATSB investigation and, secondly, slagging off a person or company is likely to result in a writ for defamation.

I was most impressed by the underlying message - GA pilots are generally shafted in the end and that the situation is not satisfactory. The public now know what we pilots have always known - the condition of GA, from the ground up, needs to change.

A special note should be made of Fiona's contribution to the report - thank you.

[Captain Sand Dune]

What another great advertisement to our young ones to become a pilot!

[OZBUSDRIVER]

$21000?????? sheesh you get $31000 clear to cart mud around ML. To Fiona..well spoken and also my heart felt condolences.

[Frank Burden]

In search of Brewth!!!

I heard that Brewth is missing. Last seen with a passport in his hand heading over the border!!! Where is Brewth!!! All reports welcome!!!

[permFO]

All the wives of GA and former GA pilots could see the agony that they hoped they would never have to go through. Well done to a courageous lady for hilighting the disgrace that is GA wages and conditions. As she mentioned they do it for the light at the end of the tunnel but even that is now just a torch being held by airline management looking for another way to squeeze more dollars out of the pilots.
Unfortuneately the statement about the world making sense when one is in the air resonates for many others and the industry will continue to exploit that depth of feeling.