The Famous ALAEA "Form" - Don't Touch it!
Thread Starter
The Famous ALAEA "Form" - Don't Touch it!
I've been reading that the ALAEA Executive have been handing out a "form" asking members to indicate their feelings about the EBA deal.
My guess, Guys, is that the ALAEA Executive will use the supposed response of its membership, as indicated by the "forms" as an excuse not to have a ballot on the EBA at all.
Translation: The "form" is really a Clayton's vote (the vote you have when you are not having a vote) it can easily be tampered with and the resulting "evidence" used to alledge that everyone is on the Executives side. Furthermore since it is a "form" and not a true ballot, it does not have to be kept, counted or open to scrutiny by anyone other than the executive.
Interesting tactic that, I wonder if you have a industrial registrar or some such who can investigate and stop this rubbish?
Tell your mates not to touch it!
My guess, Guys, is that the ALAEA Executive will use the supposed response of its membership, as indicated by the "forms" as an excuse not to have a ballot on the EBA at all.
Translation: The "form" is really a Clayton's vote (the vote you have when you are not having a vote) it can easily be tampered with and the resulting "evidence" used to alledge that everyone is on the Executives side. Furthermore since it is a "form" and not a true ballot, it does not have to be kept, counted or open to scrutiny by anyone other than the executive.
Interesting tactic that, I wonder if you have a industrial registrar or some such who can investigate and stop this rubbish?
Tell your mates not to touch it!
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Harbour City
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You dont have a clue wats going on in the workplace sunfish. The form was made by an ordinary member and its designed to give the men a choice. Either its a good agreement or a crap one so put it to the vote. I work with two senior officials and they have promised that we is going to get a vote before more industrial turmoil. They wont tolerate seeing us loose moneyn in persuit of a slightly beter agreement its just not worth it. We could be locked out for weeks and for what maybe an extra 1%. We did the figures on how much we could loose and it would take years to make up.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Oz
Posts: 466
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good to see you back casting your lures Mr Q.
I really can't see how these "forms" could constitute a "vote" either way for the EBA, I think it's more of a litmus test so the exec can steel themselves before they finally front the rank and file. I for one will not sendl one in as I think it shows thier arrogance, no feedback in a discussion forum and we get a bit of paper to fax in...........
You know these people will be the first up against the wall come the revolution.
I really can't see how these "forms" could constitute a "vote" either way for the EBA, I think it's more of a litmus test so the exec can steel themselves before they finally front the rank and file. I for one will not sendl one in as I think it shows thier arrogance, no feedback in a discussion forum and we get a bit of paper to fax in...........
You know these people will be the first up against the wall come the revolution.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The forms cannot constitute a vote. OK guys. Loud and clear.
My way of thinking, which I might say is not as blurred as some others, is that the exec merely want to gauge the feeling of the troops. Easy as pie to fathom that, without hysteria.
Redstone,
Revolution?
What revolution?
Oh, from the radical minority you mean?
Remember it takes a majority to win office not a minority!!!!!!!!!
Do you have the numbers?
My way of thinking, which I might say is not as blurred as some others, is that the exec merely want to gauge the feeling of the troops. Easy as pie to fathom that, without hysteria.
Redstone,
Revolution?
What revolution?
Oh, from the radical minority you mean?
Remember it takes a majority to win office not a minority!!!!!!!!!
Do you have the numbers?
Thread Starter
Geez, I wonder if any of you guys could borrow a few reps from the TWU? Those guys have QF's respect. Baggage handlers seem to be untouchable unless they are caught red handed!
CM, with great respect, the forms will be used as "Evidence" that no vote is needed, or as evidence to structure the motion to ensure it can only be passed.
The Executive will say something like "accept this now, otherwise any future agreement will be worse", thus using the old levers of fear, uncertainty and doubt just like QF management, which of course, will back up the executive.
I've been through this many years ago at AN. We were offered a rotten pay rise and we wanted to strike. The negotiating Committee said "This is the best deal we can get you, if you don't like it, you can get stuffed, we will not call strike action over you lot".
A few years later the negotiator joined the company's industrial relations department.
My guess is that this is the last EBA anyway. Next time around you will be working for someone else, not Qantas, and the Executive will be long gone.
CM, with great respect, the forms will be used as "Evidence" that no vote is needed, or as evidence to structure the motion to ensure it can only be passed.
The Executive will say something like "accept this now, otherwise any future agreement will be worse", thus using the old levers of fear, uncertainty and doubt just like QF management, which of course, will back up the executive.
I've been through this many years ago at AN. We were offered a rotten pay rise and we wanted to strike. The negotiating Committee said "This is the best deal we can get you, if you don't like it, you can get stuffed, we will not call strike action over you lot".
A few years later the negotiator joined the company's industrial relations department.
My guess is that this is the last EBA anyway. Next time around you will be working for someone else, not Qantas, and the Executive will be long gone.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 258
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sunfish, believe it or not, but the twu signed of on the transmission of business clause and only 3 %.So they are not the ultimate negotiators you make them out to be.
Basically we get 3 % (CPI ) and increase in the quota levels for very little trade offs.
OT banking is voluntary for heavy maint (Avalon and Bris already have it and Sydneys days are numbered anyway!!)
If you want more then you are going to have to strike for it!! Do the maths ,is it worth it??
For example for someone on $100,000 a year(to make it easy) would lose roughly $1000 before tax for 1 day on strike(depending on the shift penalty). 1 day overtime(12 hrs) worth approx $800.
1% extra a year would add $1000 a year before tax to your annual wage. How many extra percentage points do people think we can get and how many days strike or missed OT will it take??
Personally I don't think it is worth it!! We are basically getting a CPI increase for no trade offs(no one in heavy has to partake of OT banking).
Give the ALAEA your feedback, put it to the vote and accept the majority decision.
Basically we get 3 % (CPI ) and increase in the quota levels for very little trade offs.
OT banking is voluntary for heavy maint (Avalon and Bris already have it and Sydneys days are numbered anyway!!)
If you want more then you are going to have to strike for it!! Do the maths ,is it worth it??
For example for someone on $100,000 a year(to make it easy) would lose roughly $1000 before tax for 1 day on strike(depending on the shift penalty). 1 day overtime(12 hrs) worth approx $800.
1% extra a year would add $1000 a year before tax to your annual wage. How many extra percentage points do people think we can get and how many days strike or missed OT will it take??
Personally I don't think it is worth it!! We are basically getting a CPI increase for no trade offs(no one in heavy has to partake of OT banking).
Give the ALAEA your feedback, put it to the vote and accept the majority decision.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
let's face facts gents, ALAEA negotiating committee have sold us all down the river once again. You say it is not worth taking action over perhaps 1% extra?? What about the money we have already lost due to ot bans? This pathetic EBA result does not even come close to covering this.
A % increase may not be the answer, how about a decent % increase in quotas? Points for technology increases in our job such as jetsmart? The fact that a heap of LAME's will soon be facing a change in shifts from lameless tarmac? these to mention only a few issuse......all for a less than cpi increase and a loss of some conditions, voluntary or not.
Vote no and think about our future.
by the way numskull, last time i checked Avalon was not a Qantas facility. Get your facts straight or is it that all heavy maint is to be outsourced?
A % increase may not be the answer, how about a decent % increase in quotas? Points for technology increases in our job such as jetsmart? The fact that a heap of LAME's will soon be facing a change in shifts from lameless tarmac? these to mention only a few issuse......all for a less than cpi increase and a loss of some conditions, voluntary or not.
Vote no and think about our future.
by the way numskull, last time i checked Avalon was not a Qantas facility. Get your facts straight or is it that all heavy maint is to be outsourced?
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sydney
Posts: 170
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
numbskull i'm a lvl 3 lame and i am not on anything near 100k,more like 65k,where do you get your maths skill from 1 day for me is
$200- a day not $1000-.as for your attitude towards Heavy maint thanks for your support i'm hoping our days are not numbered i like workng there and so do many of my work mates.
If we go how long do you think you might have,it's this exect attitude that is erroding our powerful base that we once had
WAKE UP TO YOURSELF
$200- a day not $1000-.as for your attitude towards Heavy maint thanks for your support i'm hoping our days are not numbered i like workng there and so do many of my work mates.
If we go how long do you think you might have,it's this exect attitude that is erroding our powerful base that we once had
WAKE UP TO YOURSELF
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 258
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sys 4-I was talking 12 hrs shifts but your right my maths is wrong. It was more like $600 p/day for someone on $100k.
However this doesn't change the point I was trying to make and that is it will cost us at least as much in lost wages/OT to get whatever extra pay increase we may possibly get and even that is not assured by any stretch of the imagination.
If you are a really level 3 LAME then you really don't have a lot of experience so I'll give your comments the weight of an inexperienced LAME.
Heavy Maintenance's future depends on the product it turns out- not whether I support it. I expect my days will also be numbered if my job could be done significantly cheaper/better elsewhere.
However this doesn't change the point I was trying to make and that is it will cost us at least as much in lost wages/OT to get whatever extra pay increase we may possibly get and even that is not assured by any stretch of the imagination.
If you are a really level 3 LAME then you really don't have a lot of experience so I'll give your comments the weight of an inexperienced LAME.
Heavy Maintenance's future depends on the product it turns out- not whether I support it. I expect my days will also be numbered if my job could be done significantly cheaper/better elsewhere.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: sydney
Posts: 255
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Numbskull at which point do you believe it is worth taking a stand. EBA'S come EBA'S go.
If you never protect your base rate it will be eroded to nothing. Your ot will become essential and not a bonus.
You theory suggests it will never be worth taking action unless a big % is gained. One thing I was always taught was "take care of the cents and the dollars will take care of themselves".
What will happen to those currently content due to their access to ot and jollies (eg boros, Perth etc) and grandfather jack clauses when things change. Will their base be adequate to support the lifestyle they've grown accustom too.
By now many must realise the intention and capabilities of the current EBA Negotiation committee. Is it smart to let them succeed in undermining our position after all the progress we have made, to burn off months of unity the members themselves achieved in the face of no leadership from our union.
Expel the current team and put someone with a real agenda for the members. 8 months have past since the start of the negotiation, they have proven hopeless.
They say the members do not have the will, I say this is incorrect and they are using attrition to break the members to justify their pathetic actions. If you never protect your base rate it will be eroded to nothing. Your ot will become essential and not a bonus.
Level 9 $1399/week plus shift less tax Show me how you get $1000/day
Level has nothing to do with experience, but sometimes related to suction.
I believe it s the old guards short sightedness that has got us into this vulnerable and fractured position. The newcomers are wearing the consequences?
If you never protect your base rate it will be eroded to nothing. Your ot will become essential and not a bonus.
You theory suggests it will never be worth taking action unless a big % is gained. One thing I was always taught was "take care of the cents and the dollars will take care of themselves".
What will happen to those currently content due to their access to ot and jollies (eg boros, Perth etc) and grandfather jack clauses when things change. Will their base be adequate to support the lifestyle they've grown accustom too.
By now many must realise the intention and capabilities of the current EBA Negotiation committee. Is it smart to let them succeed in undermining our position after all the progress we have made, to burn off months of unity the members themselves achieved in the face of no leadership from our union.
Expel the current team and put someone with a real agenda for the members. 8 months have past since the start of the negotiation, they have proven hopeless.
They say the members do not have the will, I say this is incorrect and they are using attrition to break the members to justify their pathetic actions. If you never protect your base rate it will be eroded to nothing. Your ot will become essential and not a bonus.
Level 9 $1399/week plus shift less tax Show me how you get $1000/day
Level has nothing to do with experience, but sometimes related to suction.
I believe it s the old guards short sightedness that has got us into this vulnerable and fractured position. The newcomers are wearing the consequences?
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: sydney, australia
Posts: 407
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey Numbskul, sys 4 may be "an inexperienced Lame" but I can bet that he would have gone through the the AMEs dispute several years ago, which makes him an EXPERIENCED INDUSTRIAL CAMPAIGNER. He and myself and many other I know who are now Lames went through a protracted dispute with Qantas. We didn't back down. We came away with what we wanted. At one point our official from the AMWU told us that that was the best we could get....we told him in no uncertain terms to f@#k off and go back to the table and we upped our bans.
Qantas backed down. The AMEs wages are 3% better off every year and the system is much fairer. Some Ames progressed from level 6 to level 12, which is about 35% increase.
I personally lost more money than I made out of it in the short term but I sleep straight at night knowing that I helped my fellow union members and protected the wages and conditions of those still to come and that in the long term I was going to be 3% better off every year.
And by the way if you are going to accept the EBA offer do you expect to get backpayed from the 1st of jan 2005?
If you do think again.
Back pay will be payable from the 12th Jan 2005 as per the wording in the agreement( from the first pay period on or after the 1st jan 2005. The first pay period after 1 jan is the 12th jan.)
That's almost 2 weeks savings for Qantas.
Think about how much thought has gone into the wording of the agreement by Qantas and how much thought by the Alaea negotiating committee.
Qantas backed down. The AMEs wages are 3% better off every year and the system is much fairer. Some Ames progressed from level 6 to level 12, which is about 35% increase.
I personally lost more money than I made out of it in the short term but I sleep straight at night knowing that I helped my fellow union members and protected the wages and conditions of those still to come and that in the long term I was going to be 3% better off every year.
And by the way if you are going to accept the EBA offer do you expect to get backpayed from the 1st of jan 2005?
If you do think again.
Back pay will be payable from the 12th Jan 2005 as per the wording in the agreement( from the first pay period on or after the 1st jan 2005. The first pay period after 1 jan is the 12th jan.)
That's almost 2 weeks savings for Qantas.
Think about how much thought has gone into the wording of the agreement by Qantas and how much thought by the Alaea negotiating committee.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Turbo 5B I agree..
Correct me if I,m wrong but weren't we promised a better deal after getting screwed last EBA??? What happened? Is our Industrial officer actually working for us? Lets look at past achievements:
EBA 6 = Accepted offer less than first offered!!!
BBJ = No payment for approveal on Type (the very basis of LAME Payments) NB No difference to the 747-400er payment that WAS negotitated.
EBA 7 = God knows!!! but why did the company add the conditions on licence payments for non QF Tpyes (ie Dock only get a payment whilst the a/c is in the hangar and only the signorty gets it) Again this goes against what the ALAEA was set up for
Times have be execellent for QF whats going to happenen to us when things do turn sour if we can't stand up for ourselves now
Correct me if I,m wrong but weren't we promised a better deal after getting screwed last EBA??? What happened? Is our Industrial officer actually working for us? Lets look at past achievements:
EBA 6 = Accepted offer less than first offered!!!
BBJ = No payment for approveal on Type (the very basis of LAME Payments) NB No difference to the 747-400er payment that WAS negotitated.
EBA 7 = God knows!!! but why did the company add the conditions on licence payments for non QF Tpyes (ie Dock only get a payment whilst the a/c is in the hangar and only the signorty gets it) Again this goes against what the ALAEA was set up for
Times have be execellent for QF whats going to happenen to us when things do turn sour if we can't stand up for ourselves now
