NJS Preferred Bidder
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In a burrow
Posts: 252
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Normasars,
You seem pretty harsh on NJS, correct me if I am wrong (I wasnt there) but didn't NJS give you guys/girls a bit of a lifeline from the streets, by keeping you employed (on Jets) for an extra 12mths after QF ditched you all? And some pilots even longer? (some might even still be with NJS)
You seem pretty harsh on NJS, correct me if I am wrong (I wasnt there) but didn't NJS give you guys/girls a bit of a lifeline from the streets, by keeping you employed (on Jets) for an extra 12mths after QF ditched you all? And some pilots even longer? (some might even still be with NJS)
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: The Beech or the Office.
Age: 14
Posts: 330
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Scramjet77, thanks for your compassion and no I am not out of work. You are completely missing my point. Do you honestly think that NJS was ever going to lose the B717 contract. The writing was on the wall the day VQ was announced as the LCC for Qantas. A LCC CANNOT operate different fleet units, it is diametrically opposed to the whole business model of LOW COST.
The regionals were never going to crew the 717 and the 146s were ear marked for replacement. You guys were always going to be the operators of the 717.
What pisses me off is that you guys/girls at NJS (and yes I did work there for 2 years) believed the company Spin Doctors and caved in to their demands. Q played both NJS and Jetstar off against each other, and they are masters of that, just watch and see the Q400 saga unfold between Eaa and SS as to pay and conditions there.
Once again the company called the bluff of the pilot group and this has to stop. I am sorry if I offended you in my earlier post but this kind of sh!t is what is destroying all of us and our cause. Longjohns thread is a good read and there are some fantastic ideas there for all of us as professionals to ponder on that.
PS goodluck to yourself and Clarrie over there
The regionals were never going to crew the 717 and the 146s were ear marked for replacement. You guys were always going to be the operators of the 717.
What pisses me off is that you guys/girls at NJS (and yes I did work there for 2 years) believed the company Spin Doctors and caved in to their demands. Q played both NJS and Jetstar off against each other, and they are masters of that, just watch and see the Q400 saga unfold between Eaa and SS as to pay and conditions there.
Once again the company called the bluff of the pilot group and this has to stop. I am sorry if I offended you in my earlier post but this kind of sh!t is what is destroying all of us and our cause. Longjohns thread is a good read and there are some fantastic ideas there for all of us as professionals to ponder on that.
PS goodluck to yourself and Clarrie over there
Bottums Up
Normasars
What you say in your immediately prevoius post, re NJS being a shoo in for the 717s may be correct. I suspect many think that way BUT no where near as many were prepared to take the gamble on the shoo without some sort of insurance.
Maybe we were wrong, perhaps we were right. Unless you have some serious inside information from QF's hallowed halls of power, you can't possibly know you're right, you can only surmise. I don't believe that any of us workers will ever know, I do however remember when NJS was a shoo in to get the airframes that became YAD, YAE & YAF. We only got them by default after QF merged the Eastern & Southern operations.
It doesn't pay to be too cocky and I have little doubt that despite all the signs that might have said the 717s would come to NJS, had QF not been happy with the deal they got, they would have quite happily sent them to Jetstar, just to prove their point.
What you say in your immediately prevoius post, re NJS being a shoo in for the 717s may be correct. I suspect many think that way BUT no where near as many were prepared to take the gamble on the shoo without some sort of insurance.
Maybe we were wrong, perhaps we were right. Unless you have some serious inside information from QF's hallowed halls of power, you can't possibly know you're right, you can only surmise. I don't believe that any of us workers will ever know, I do however remember when NJS was a shoo in to get the airframes that became YAD, YAE & YAF. We only got them by default after QF merged the Eastern & Southern operations.
It doesn't pay to be too cocky and I have little doubt that despite all the signs that might have said the 717s would come to NJS, had QF not been happy with the deal they got, they would have quite happily sent them to Jetstar, just to prove their point.
Someone mentioned a "bonus" from management down the track.
Weren't VB pilots, after undercutting incumbant domestic pilots and paying for their training, promised a similar improvement of conditions down the track?
It wont eventuate guys! But a clever negotiating ploy to make those who have been had keep a little self esteem.
1 - Qantas International S/O's accept a 10% paycut to crew 737's. Free endorsement.
2- Virgin Blue pilots launch onto the scene for conservatively 30% less. Pay for endorsement.
3- Qantas pilots crew Australian Airlines 767's at 40% less than current Ansett pilots.
4- Impulse launch 717's less than VB. Impulse collapses, lucky guys keep their jobs under the QF umbrella but.....
5- Former Impulse, now Jetstar pilots, fly A320's for 10% less than VB pilots and considerably less than QF Domestic pilots.
6- QF pilots help launch Jetstar Asia for the going rate; at a time when regional payrises likely due gross shortage of Airbus pilots. Pay for endorsement.
7- National Jet pilots hoodwinked into flying for 15% less than Jetstar pilots. Pay for endorsement.
8- Low Cost Pilots in 2,3,4,5,6,7 despite undermining and denying their responsibility to aviation conditions of service in Australia, flock to well paid jobs abroad. Naively not realising if you can't negotitiate and protect conditions in Australia, how in the hell are you going to do it abroad without the protection of labor laws etc?
I was unemployed too for what it's worth- and 69K a year as a Low Cost Pilot and paying for my endorsement it was not!
Weren't VB pilots, after undercutting incumbant domestic pilots and paying for their training, promised a similar improvement of conditions down the track?
It wont eventuate guys! But a clever negotiating ploy to make those who have been had keep a little self esteem.
1 - Qantas International S/O's accept a 10% paycut to crew 737's. Free endorsement.
2- Virgin Blue pilots launch onto the scene for conservatively 30% less. Pay for endorsement.
3- Qantas pilots crew Australian Airlines 767's at 40% less than current Ansett pilots.
4- Impulse launch 717's less than VB. Impulse collapses, lucky guys keep their jobs under the QF umbrella but.....
5- Former Impulse, now Jetstar pilots, fly A320's for 10% less than VB pilots and considerably less than QF Domestic pilots.
6- QF pilots help launch Jetstar Asia for the going rate; at a time when regional payrises likely due gross shortage of Airbus pilots. Pay for endorsement.
7- National Jet pilots hoodwinked into flying for 15% less than Jetstar pilots. Pay for endorsement.
8- Low Cost Pilots in 2,3,4,5,6,7 despite undermining and denying their responsibility to aviation conditions of service in Australia, flock to well paid jobs abroad. Naively not realising if you can't negotitiate and protect conditions in Australia, how in the hell are you going to do it abroad without the protection of labor laws etc?
I was unemployed too for what it's worth- and 69K a year as a Low Cost Pilot and paying for my endorsement it was not!
Join Date: Oct 1998
Posts: 230
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gnadenburg,
You must be one of the arrogant, self centred f##kwits that are to arrogant to acknowledge a regional pilot in your midst.
Symptoms include:
1. not acknowledging a G'day when one of the plebs walks by;
2. chastising/berrating your F/O for making social conversation with a regional pleb;
3. turning ones head away as you walk past a regional pleb as to avoid eye contact;
4. being openly rude to the above on company frequencies; or
5. a B747-400 skipper that refers to a 737 as a "maggot" as it taxies by?
Matey, we have a wonderful lifestyle with minimal overnights (this means REAL SEX with the missus; and not that pretend stuff in front of the mirror) It means we usually either drop the kids at school or are at home in time to pick them up in the afternoon. It means we either have brekky with the kids or dinner with the family in the evening.
Gnadenburg, if earning the big bucks makes you happy then good luck to you , but never forget that NOBODY gets something for no reason and be careful what you wish for.
best of luck with the body lotion at the Hilton.
You must be one of the arrogant, self centred f##kwits that are to arrogant to acknowledge a regional pilot in your midst.
Symptoms include:
1. not acknowledging a G'day when one of the plebs walks by;
2. chastising/berrating your F/O for making social conversation with a regional pleb;
3. turning ones head away as you walk past a regional pleb as to avoid eye contact;
4. being openly rude to the above on company frequencies; or
5. a B747-400 skipper that refers to a 737 as a "maggot" as it taxies by?
Matey, we have a wonderful lifestyle with minimal overnights (this means REAL SEX with the missus; and not that pretend stuff in front of the mirror) It means we usually either drop the kids at school or are at home in time to pick them up in the afternoon. It means we either have brekky with the kids or dinner with the family in the evening.
Gnadenburg, if earning the big bucks makes you happy then good luck to you , but never forget that NOBODY gets something for no reason and be careful what you wish for.
best of luck with the body lotion at the Hilton.
Last edited by alidad; 15th Feb 2005 at 13:11.
After that outburst Alidad, I would suggest you have a few more problems in the bedroom than you care to admit.
In just 5 short years Alidad, you work for half of what I used too.
You are the lowest paid of Australia's Low Cost Pilots. But don't fear, precedent suggests somebody will undercut you very soon!
When the reality of your wage sets in, you will look to improve it the easy way, by seeking employment with the final bastions of good paying airline positions. Like VB & J* pilots before you, you will absolve yourself of any responsibility of the parlous state of pilot conditions you have created.
Enjoy flying 900 hours a year, on a truck drivers diet of cold sandwiches, coffee and coca cola.
In just 5 short years Alidad, you work for half of what I used too.
You are the lowest paid of Australia's Low Cost Pilots. But don't fear, precedent suggests somebody will undercut you very soon!
When the reality of your wage sets in, you will look to improve it the easy way, by seeking employment with the final bastions of good paying airline positions. Like VB & J* pilots before you, you will absolve yourself of any responsibility of the parlous state of pilot conditions you have created.
Enjoy flying 900 hours a year, on a truck drivers diet of cold sandwiches, coffee and coca cola.
Join Date: Oct 1998
Posts: 230
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gnadenburg,
There you go again- money, money, money- enough said on that.
Are one of the unfortunates that use your job to define who you are? Do you happen to always find an excuse to duck into the shop in full uniform; parade for all to see what you do? oh the mistique of it all. Do you have a hatstand just inside the front door so that all visitors can marvel at your dress regalia, and you don't have to tell them what an important position you hold in society?
For some of us flying is a great job and is simply what we do
to earn a living- it is not who we are!
How is the lotion going?
There you go again- money, money, money- enough said on that.
Are one of the unfortunates that use your job to define who you are? Do you happen to always find an excuse to duck into the shop in full uniform; parade for all to see what you do? oh the mistique of it all. Do you have a hatstand just inside the front door so that all visitors can marvel at your dress regalia, and you don't have to tell them what an important position you hold in society?
For some of us flying is a great job and is simply what we do
to earn a living- it is not who we are!
How is the lotion going?
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
alidad stop rising to Gnadenburg's twoddle, ignor just move on I suspect a he's a little over .05 anyway.
The NJS team will get a reasoneable deal out of this in the long run, current managements on both sides of this deal will change in the next 2yrs for certain.
So in the meantime we have to make sure we get this transition current and continue to build our cred. with QF.
The NJS team will get a reasoneable deal out of this in the long run, current managements on both sides of this deal will change in the next 2yrs for certain.
So in the meantime we have to make sure we get this transition current and continue to build our cred. with QF.
ali,
I feel you may be missing one of Gnad's valid points with regard to the Low Cost pilot. That being: after reaching their airline "dream" and flying shiny new aircraft for a period of time, the novelty sure as hell disappears very quickly when they realise that their income is not too flash at all. They then try for the well paid overseas position, but don't realise that they are making it difficult, perhaps impossible, for the overseas pilots to advance their cause in Terms and Conditions. This comes about from the overseas airline's argument "why should we give you a pay rise when we are getting pilots from countries (Oz) who have never seen money like this before and are more than satisfied with their current contract?"
The main point: Low cost pilots are not only hurting themselves by jumping over each other to get ahead, in the long run they may be hurting well established drivers overseas when they jump ship for a new airline!!
I feel you may be missing one of Gnad's valid points with regard to the Low Cost pilot. That being: after reaching their airline "dream" and flying shiny new aircraft for a period of time, the novelty sure as hell disappears very quickly when they realise that their income is not too flash at all. They then try for the well paid overseas position, but don't realise that they are making it difficult, perhaps impossible, for the overseas pilots to advance their cause in Terms and Conditions. This comes about from the overseas airline's argument "why should we give you a pay rise when we are getting pilots from countries (Oz) who have never seen money like this before and are more than satisfied with their current contract?"
The main point: Low cost pilots are not only hurting themselves by jumping over each other to get ahead, in the long run they may be hurting well established drivers overseas when they jump ship for a new airline!!
ARRRGGGHHH!!! You LCCP-bashers are FULL OF IT. Since when has any LCCP (or any bloody pilot) had any right (or success for that matter) in demanding, from their new employer, much more money that what is being offered at the time of employment??
When has this been done in Australia?
I'll tell you the problem with the Oz aviation pay scene right now: it's the OBSCENE rates of pay that post 89 pilots were and are getting paid! If the Ansett fatcats had had a dose of reality and took their pay levels down to reality, then perhaps they wouldn't have gone broke and given an opportunist like Branson a chance step up to the plate with vastly reduced pay rates. Sama Sama Jetstar.
Are you really telling me that some GA jockey (or an NJS troop trying to KEEP his job) should knock back a jet job or a pay "adjustment" just because you aces don't want to see pressure on your salaries?? Get real, you selfish so and sos. Have YOU ever been into Geoff Dixon's office promoting the worth of the profession, supporting better pay for prospective workmates? I didn't think so.
This thread, which originally was about the battle between Jetstar and NJS for the 717s, has progressively made me sicker and sicker. With "mates" like you lot in the industry, who needs a boss to kick you in the guts?
Woomera, this is going nowhere. Click it please!
When has this been done in Australia?
I'll tell you the problem with the Oz aviation pay scene right now: it's the OBSCENE rates of pay that post 89 pilots were and are getting paid! If the Ansett fatcats had had a dose of reality and took their pay levels down to reality, then perhaps they wouldn't have gone broke and given an opportunist like Branson a chance step up to the plate with vastly reduced pay rates. Sama Sama Jetstar.
Are you really telling me that some GA jockey (or an NJS troop trying to KEEP his job) should knock back a jet job or a pay "adjustment" just because you aces don't want to see pressure on your salaries?? Get real, you selfish so and sos. Have YOU ever been into Geoff Dixon's office promoting the worth of the profession, supporting better pay for prospective workmates? I didn't think so.
This thread, which originally was about the battle between Jetstar and NJS for the 717s, has progressively made me sicker and sicker. With "mates" like you lot in the industry, who needs a boss to kick you in the guts?
Woomera, this is going nowhere. Click it please!
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Drag city
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gnadenburg,
As far as I am aware Jetstar Asia does not endorse pilots with ratings. The airline pays for the traineee to go to france, to Airbus, and Airbus does the rating. The trainee is paid for all meals, accomodation, airfares for the training, and get an allowance, the meal allowance is nothing to write home about, but keeps you from starving.
Pilots are "bonded" to the airline for a fixed period, however the bond does not include handing over any cash or guarentee to the airline.
As far as pay, pilots are one the same or better than others in Singapore, having attracted pilots from Silkair, Valueair, Tiger.
6- QF pilots help launch Jetstar Asia for the going rate; at a time when regional payrises likely due gross shortage of Airbus pilots. Pay for endorsement.
Pilots are "bonded" to the airline for a fixed period, however the bond does not include handing over any cash or guarentee to the airline.
As far as pay, pilots are one the same or better than others in Singapore, having attracted pilots from Silkair, Valueair, Tiger.
Booca
I am an NJS pilot and feel some of you are missing the point.
I have been employed by NJS for 10 years and have no intention of moving on. I was quite happy flying the 146 and would continue to fly it happily for another 15yrs then retire.
I have never applied to QF, maybe a mistake in hindsight, not at all interested in the likes of Virgin or Jetstar.
As for moving overseas for $$$$ well if thats your thing then your welcome to it no competition from me.
I can safely say that a large percentage of NJS guys are here for lifestyle, e.g. alidad.
We were forced to make a decision.
The 717 are coming to replace the 146, no choice, we didn't ask for shiny new flash jets!! couldn't give a toss. They are coming.
Considering all the info available to us, and I mean real info not asumptions like Normasars has made, we could either comptete with Impulse/Jetstar pilots to maintain status quo or give in and hope like hell that QF really did want to maintain a business relationship with NJS for what ever reason.
I completely understand some of my colleagues displeasure with having to take a paycut or pay for an endorsement. God I don't want to go backwards, I believe I am worth every cent I get but consider the reality.
We are worse off initially by about $600.yr pre tax
Endorsement costs really equate to $0 after 2 yrs. not sure about an F/O
To take the chance and lose and move on to a mob like Jetstar costs what ever Capt Claret suggested earlier on, for the interview then if you get in ???
moving costs around $15k
Endorsement costs $ 35-40K
Back to an F/O's pay loss of about $50-60k all in one year. add that up and in the first year we are behind by about $100-120K before tax.
Thats before you have to move the kids from their friends, school, sell the house, and if other threads are accurate work for a company with morale well and truly down the drain.
We could expect absoluetely no support from any one outside our group. So solidarity = zip. Remember 1989.
So no thanks I will be a girl, sook tosser what ever you like but I am happy with my lot so get stuffed.
I have been employed by NJS for 10 years and have no intention of moving on. I was quite happy flying the 146 and would continue to fly it happily for another 15yrs then retire.
I have never applied to QF, maybe a mistake in hindsight, not at all interested in the likes of Virgin or Jetstar.
As for moving overseas for $$$$ well if thats your thing then your welcome to it no competition from me.
I can safely say that a large percentage of NJS guys are here for lifestyle, e.g. alidad.
We were forced to make a decision.
The 717 are coming to replace the 146, no choice, we didn't ask for shiny new flash jets!! couldn't give a toss. They are coming.
Considering all the info available to us, and I mean real info not asumptions like Normasars has made, we could either comptete with Impulse/Jetstar pilots to maintain status quo or give in and hope like hell that QF really did want to maintain a business relationship with NJS for what ever reason.
I completely understand some of my colleagues displeasure with having to take a paycut or pay for an endorsement. God I don't want to go backwards, I believe I am worth every cent I get but consider the reality.
We are worse off initially by about $600.yr pre tax
Endorsement costs really equate to $0 after 2 yrs. not sure about an F/O
To take the chance and lose and move on to a mob like Jetstar costs what ever Capt Claret suggested earlier on, for the interview then if you get in ???
moving costs around $15k
Endorsement costs $ 35-40K
Back to an F/O's pay loss of about $50-60k all in one year. add that up and in the first year we are behind by about $100-120K before tax.
Thats before you have to move the kids from their friends, school, sell the house, and if other threads are accurate work for a company with morale well and truly down the drain.
We could expect absoluetely no support from any one outside our group. So solidarity = zip. Remember 1989.
So no thanks I will be a girl, sook tosser what ever you like but I am happy with my lot so get stuffed.
