Erebus 25 years on
I do not think anybody in their right mind would consider these requirements could be applied to a DC10 at 260kts 1,500ft
Sheeeesh 60 pages going round in circles.
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Megan said:
They are. But don't feel bad about that megan; everyone learns at their own pace and I'm sure (ish) you'll get there in the end.
And if this were true, it should have generated an incident report from McMurdo staff and the pilots disciplined appropriately on a case by case basis. This isn't evidence that this sort of flying was sanctioned by the airline, and the fact that one pilot gets away with reckless flying and poor airmanship in no way exonerates another when he doesn't.
Quite correct Captain C, some are extremely slow learners.
It seems some apparently did, having been observed at 500 feet AGL.
Whispering "T" Jet
The requirements for operating below MSA were clearly laid down, if they were complied with there would have been no disaster.
.........the Captains decision taken with no discussion between the crew?
.........trust them for decision making regarding complying with instructions, and if they went outside these instructions then there would have to had been good justification.
Sheeeesh 60 pages going round in circles. !!
........as planned kept them well clear of Mt Erebus.
.Flight at 500'AGL.....an incident report from McMurdo staff and the pilots disciplined appropriately on a case by case basis.
Come on guys, can we get onto something we don't know. (politely)
Come on guys, can we get onto something we don't know.?
what? that's a novel new tack to take. . . . thinks . .. . I know SFA about so many things . . . what can there be potentially relevant to the erebus debate that no one has yet the foggiest idea about .. .that has not yet had an airing? (the role and place of absurdity in debate? the definition of 'reductio ad absurdum'.)
A form of argument in which a proposition is disproven by following its implications logically to an absurd conclusion. Arguments which use universals such as, “always”, “never”, “everyone”, “nobody”, etc., are prone to being reduced to absurd conclusions. The fallacy is in the argument that could be reduced to absurdity -- so in essence, reductio ad absurdum is a technique to expose the fallacy.
and incidentally . . . she may not be a guy you are addressing either 3 holes good (4 holes good . .as in ANIMAL FARM . . .. four legs good . . . two legs bad. . . . don't call me obscure!)
what? that's a novel new tack to take. . . . thinks . .. . I know SFA about so many things . . . what can there be potentially relevant to the erebus debate that no one has yet the foggiest idea about .. .that has not yet had an airing? (the role and place of absurdity in debate? the definition of 'reductio ad absurdum'.)
A form of argument in which a proposition is disproven by following its implications logically to an absurd conclusion. Arguments which use universals such as, “always”, “never”, “everyone”, “nobody”, etc., are prone to being reduced to absurd conclusions. The fallacy is in the argument that could be reduced to absurdity -- so in essence, reductio ad absurdum is a technique to expose the fallacy.
and incidentally . . . she may not be a guy you are addressing either 3 holes good (4 holes good . .as in ANIMAL FARM . . .. four legs good . . . two legs bad. . . . don't call me obscure!)
Last edited by Fantome; 17th Jul 2016 at 13:54.
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3 Holer said
.
To which we say:
NEGATIVE. The plan was changed the night before to fly directly over Mt Erebus.
Kind of a crucial difference.
Because there wasn't one recorded on the CVR, which was recording at the stage when such a discussion would have occurred. Or are you suggesting they may have chewed the fat over the VFR racetrack descent using the INS while the aircraft was somewhere over IVC?
NEGATIVE. The plan was changed the night before to fly directly at Mt Erebus
To which we say:
NEGATIVE. The plan was changed the night before to fly directly over Mt Erebus.
Kind of a crucial difference.
Assumption and argumentative. How do you know that no discussion took place?
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PH6, don't waste your breath. Ole mate 3 Holer and his crew are obviously of the type that will always blame 'someone else' for their fk ups. It's a common trait, CRM wise. Namely narcissism.
In a previous life I was taught the responsibilities of 'command'. That included not only ensuring I was acting as per the 'law', but above and beyond as I saw fit. Never below.
megan seems to think Colins and crew should be absolved of any responsibility because 'well, other crews did it!' As my dear ole Dad used to say 'if he said jump off this cliff, would you follow him?'
3 Holer I can't answer for. I just hope he isn't, or never has, flown anyone anywhere except for himself. He certainly doesn't appear to have a clue as to professional flying, or as to who actually holds the ultimate responsibility for the outcome of a flight.
In a previous life I was taught the responsibilities of 'command'. That included not only ensuring I was acting as per the 'law', but above and beyond as I saw fit. Never below.
megan seems to think Colins and crew should be absolved of any responsibility because 'well, other crews did it!' As my dear ole Dad used to say 'if he said jump off this cliff, would you follow him?'
3 Holer I can't answer for. I just hope he isn't, or never has, flown anyone anywhere except for himself. He certainly doesn't appear to have a clue as to professional flying, or as to who actually holds the ultimate responsibility for the outcome of a flight.
Last edited by Hempy; 17th Jul 2016 at 19:40.
Whispering "T" Jet
Because there wasn't one recorded on the CVR, which was recording at the stage when such a discussion would have occurred
Keep smoking that stuff Hempy and you might actually believe your own theories one day. However,you'll be struggling to convince anyone else.
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There was no evidence that the captain was "fastidious", apart from the evidence that he was dead and the social requirement to not speak ill of such people. If anything, he was the opposite. (I don't adhere to the aforementioned social requirement, which is why Mahon was an idiot.)
The crew could not have received any briefing of the sort 3 Holer describes outside the 30 minutes caught on tape. The is obvious from reading the transcript (whatever version):
Cloud come down - May have to miss McMurdo. No reference to going down VMC - which there would have been if 3 Holer were correct.
Radar assist offered. Great! Announce it to the passengers.
Ten minutes trying to contact the radar operator on VHF. No luck. Then, out of the blue, the captain says he can see the ground, that he is going to do an orbit, and that he is descending VMC.
The crew could not have received any briefing of the sort 3 Holer describes outside the 30 minutes caught on tape. The is obvious from reading the transcript (whatever version):
Cloud come down - May have to miss McMurdo. No reference to going down VMC - which there would have been if 3 Holer were correct.
Radar assist offered. Great! Announce it to the passengers.
Ten minutes trying to contact the radar operator on VHF. No luck. Then, out of the blue, the captain says he can see the ground, that he is going to do an orbit, and that he is descending VMC.
There was no evidence that the captain was "fastidious", apart from the evidence that he was dead and the social requirement to not speak ill of such people. If anything, he was the opposite. (I don't adhere to the aforementioned social requirement, which is why Mahon was an idiot.)
the tone of the debate is lowered immeasurably by the veritable litany of such aspersions. There are sufficient offensive references in the above post
to warrant anyone with a half reasonable approach chairing a meeting to require a retraction or failing that to order the suspension for at least a lifetime of the offender
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the tone of the debate is lowered immeasurably by the veritable litany of such aspersions.
NEGATIVE. The plan was changed the night before to fly directly at Mt Erebus.
NEGATIVE. The plan was changed the night before to fly directly over Mt Erebus.
Kind of a crucial difference.
Kind of a crucial difference.
megan seems to think Colins and crew should be absolved of any responsibility because 'well, other crews did it
he was an idiot and thick. Couldn’t even pass School C. As to what was going on inside the head of Captain Collins, the answer is: Very little.
With regard to CFIT, ANZ had a near event where a 767 with 176 souls descended to 340 ft PA (384 ft RA) 5½ miles short of the runway prior to an overshoot being carried out. Unlike the airlines handling of the Erebus event, in this case their after the event actions were impeccable, in fact exemplary. They undertook a world wide education program, I've never seen the like of it since by any operator.
In the report they said,
While acknowledging the role that operational personnel play in the incidents, the analysis looks for deficiencies that can be eliminated and system defences that can be strengthened. In general terms, there are three levels of action that may be taken when mitigating hazards:
Level 1 - eliminate the hazard. These are the safest decisions but may not be the most efficient.
Level 2 - accept the hazard and adjust the system to tolerate human error and reduce the possibility of an occurrence.
Level 3 - accept that the hazard can neither be eliminated nor controlled and train operational personnel to be aware of the potential hazard.
Third level actions should not be taken in preference to first or second level actions, since it is impossible to anticipate all future kinds of human error. The system should be designed to tolerate the entire range of normal human behaviour; that is, it must be ‘error tolerant’.
Level 1 - eliminate the hazard. These are the safest decisions but may not be the most efficient.
Level 2 - accept the hazard and adjust the system to tolerate human error and reduce the possibility of an occurrence.
Level 3 - accept that the hazard can neither be eliminated nor controlled and train operational personnel to be aware of the potential hazard.
Third level actions should not be taken in preference to first or second level actions, since it is impossible to anticipate all future kinds of human error. The system should be designed to tolerate the entire range of normal human behaviour; that is, it must be ‘error tolerant’.
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Oftentimes letting go has nothing to do with weakness, and everything to do with strength. We let go and walk away not because we want the universe to realize our worth, but because we finally realize our own worth.
We can spend days, weeks, months, or even years sitting alone in the darkness, over-analysing a situation from the past, trying to put the pieces together, justifying what could have or should have happened. Or we can just leave the pieces on the floor behind us and walk outside into the sunlight to get some fresh air.
There are things we did not want to happen, but have to accept, things we don’t want to know, but have to learn, and people we can’t live without but have to let go. Some circumstances and people come into our lives just to strengthen us, so we can move on without them.
Imagine all the wondrous things our minds might embrace if it weren’t wrapped so tightly around your struggles. Always look at what you have, instead of what you have lost. Because it’s not what the world takes away from you that counts; it’s what you do with what is you have left.
There is only one way to happiness, and that is to cease worrying about things which are beyond the power of our control. Letting go doesn’t always mean that we don’t care about people anymore; it’s simply realizing that the only person we really have control over is our self.
Think for yourself, and allow others the privilege of doing so too. We all dance to the beat of a different drum. There are few absolute ‘rights’ and ‘wrongs’ in the world. You need to live your life your way – the way that’s right for you.
Are you really seeing whatever it is you’re looking at? You are today where your thoughts and perceptions have brought you; you will be tomorrow where your thoughts and perceptions take you. If you truly want change, you must first change your mind. The world around you changes when you change.
We can make decisions, or we can make excuses. – Life is a continuous exercise in creative problem solving. A mistake doesn’t become a failure until we refuse to correct it. Thus, most long-term failures are the outcome of people who make excuses instead of decisions.
Sometimes walking away is the only way to win. – Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who have proven that they are committed to misunderstanding you. In other words, don’t define your intelligence by the number of arguments you have won, but by the number of times you have said,
We can spend days, weeks, months, or even years sitting alone in the darkness, over-analysing a situation from the past, trying to put the pieces together, justifying what could have or should have happened. Or we can just leave the pieces on the floor behind us and walk outside into the sunlight to get some fresh air.
There are things we did not want to happen, but have to accept, things we don’t want to know, but have to learn, and people we can’t live without but have to let go. Some circumstances and people come into our lives just to strengthen us, so we can move on without them.
Imagine all the wondrous things our minds might embrace if it weren’t wrapped so tightly around your struggles. Always look at what you have, instead of what you have lost. Because it’s not what the world takes away from you that counts; it’s what you do with what is you have left.
There is only one way to happiness, and that is to cease worrying about things which are beyond the power of our control. Letting go doesn’t always mean that we don’t care about people anymore; it’s simply realizing that the only person we really have control over is our self.
Think for yourself, and allow others the privilege of doing so too. We all dance to the beat of a different drum. There are few absolute ‘rights’ and ‘wrongs’ in the world. You need to live your life your way – the way that’s right for you.
Are you really seeing whatever it is you’re looking at? You are today where your thoughts and perceptions have brought you; you will be tomorrow where your thoughts and perceptions take you. If you truly want change, you must first change your mind. The world around you changes when you change.
We can make decisions, or we can make excuses. – Life is a continuous exercise in creative problem solving. A mistake doesn’t become a failure until we refuse to correct it. Thus, most long-term failures are the outcome of people who make excuses instead of decisions.
Sometimes walking away is the only way to win. – Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who have proven that they are committed to misunderstanding you. In other words, don’t define your intelligence by the number of arguments you have won, but by the number of times you have said,
“This needless nonsense is not worth my time.”
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"why did he do that?" Is that not the lesson we should all be seeking?
Dark Knight,
Very good, my excuse is that I am retired, and I do have the time to waste when the weather is inclement.
Whispering "T" Jet
"why he should not have done that?"
Have we learnt from it ? Yes we have. Will it change anything? Certainly.
surely the discussion over many many many posts, Is "why he should not have done that?"
Dark Knight, eloquently said, and something we should all take to heart.
With that, I'm out of here.
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Just to finish the communal hug, with particular regard to megan, I offer the following quote from page 279 of 'Daughters of Erebus' by the thankfully-late Paul Holmes: "Maria [Collins]: 'O, he always said he wasn't brainy. He had to sit School Cert twice. He always considered himself not very bright because everybody got it the first time except him."
Last edited by ampan; 18th Jul 2016 at 05:25. Reason: Can megan resist? I doubt it.
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Just to finish the communal hug, with particular regard to megan, I offer the following quote from page 279 of 'Daughters of Erebus' by the thankfully-late Paul Holmes: "Maria [Collins]: 'O, he always said he wasn't brainy. He had to sit School Cert twice. He always considered himself not very bright because everybody got it the first time except him."
You can't hang someone solely on the basis of having failed School Certificate. That said, thinking back to my School C days, I can't think of anyone I know of who failed that exam that I'd want in command of a large commercial aircraft. There was the poster 30 pages or so back who had flown with Collins who said he "could be pleasant to fly with, but there was a hard nosed streak". Putting all this together makes me wonder if Collins had that dreadful mixture of arrogance which is out of proportion to intellect. Combine that with Cassin, who a colleague described to me as "....a mouse. He wouldn't have spoken out unless he truly believed disaster was imminent" and you have a recipe for badness in the front end.
Megan said
I'm interested in answering the question, "why did he do that?"
Collins made errors, and they need to be acknowledged. They were not all the result of commercial pressure, or lack of training, or normalisation of deviance, but rather simple bad judgement and happened in complete isolation to the arguably substandard infrastructure surrounding these flights.
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We can spend days, weeks, months, or even years sitting alone in the darkness, over-analysing a situation from the past, trying to put the pieces together, justifying what could have or should have happened. Or we can just leave the pieces on the floor behind us and walk outside into the sunlight to get some fresh air.
There are things we did not want to happen, but have to accept, things we don’t want to know, but have to learn, and people we can’t live without but have to let go. Some circumstances and people come into our lives just to strengthen us, so we can move on without them.
Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who have proven that they are committed to misunderstanding you. In other words, don’t define your intelligence by the number of arguments you have won, but by the number of times you have said,
There are things we did not want to happen, but have to accept, things we don’t want to know, but have to learn, and people we can’t live without but have to let go. Some circumstances and people come into our lives just to strengthen us, so we can move on without them.
Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who have proven that they are committed to misunderstanding you. In other words, don’t define your intelligence by the number of arguments you have won, but by the number of times you have said,
“This needless nonsense is not worth my time.”
IF ONLY MORE PEOPLE HEEDED this simple message. (perhaps they just don't get it . . don't want to get it and will remain bitter and twisted till death too silences their loose lips. )
'Daughters of Erebus' by the thankfully-late Paul Holmes: how unutterably primitive callow tactless
crass and unkind to dance on the grave of anyone. . . however despised that corpse might be.
p.s. my bold
'Daughters of Erebus' by the thankfully-late Paul Holmes: how unutterably primitive callow tactless
crass and unkind to dance on the grave of anyone. . . however despised that corpse might be.
p.s. my bold
If the discussion of the accident , all the foregoings and all the consequences
brings to light a philosophical reflection such as the one just posted then that has to be all to the good. If the advice contained therein is not sweetened to the point of a saccharine coated pill and hence likely to evoke responses not necessarily in complete accord with the message.
Even so, I would not like to be mistaken for disagreeing with the essentially life improving or enhancing thought train. . . . all I offer is a somewhat wry comment relating to new age 'philosophers' made prominent in the sixties with flower power and peace brother . . . get on the peace train.
John Clarke came out with this devastatingly satirical version of Gibran's set-piece - (which I was glad to trot out . . . the John Clarke version . . .when my daughter told me she had discovered Gibran and would follow him to the ends of the earth)
Clarke called it THE HALF-YEARLY PROPHET
And a Punter came forth, which was not unusual, and said Speak to us of Race 5 at Randwick.
And he answered and said:
Goodness me, is that the time?
People of Moron, I say to you, Wisdom is not in others. It is in ourselves. We are not others. Other people are. We are us. And yet they are not Them. They are merely an Us which does not include anybody here. Any questions so far? The world is a seamless cloth. Take shelter in it but do not expect it to fit.
Love and Understanding are but winds that bear the spirit.
Love may be given but cannot be taken.
Understanding can be neither given nor taken but is the string in the bow of Life.
We are not Us either, incidentally, I should make this clear.
Just a small one thanks.
Everything is its own opposite.
Paradox is that which is not paradoxical.
Only the living know death. Only the dead are living.
Only the lonely, dum dum dum dumdedoowah, know the way I feel tonight.
Jameson's if they've got it.
A cow has many windows, but only one rudder.
Reason is a tool. Try to remember where you left it.
If you are rich and you would give, give not your money.
The poor know nought of money. Give them of yourself.
A smile, a pat on the head, something of that order.
And he beckoned to the pilot.
I must take rest for a time, he said, possibly on Venus.
And he was gone.
brings to light a philosophical reflection such as the one just posted then that has to be all to the good. If the advice contained therein is not sweetened to the point of a saccharine coated pill and hence likely to evoke responses not necessarily in complete accord with the message.
Even so, I would not like to be mistaken for disagreeing with the essentially life improving or enhancing thought train. . . . all I offer is a somewhat wry comment relating to new age 'philosophers' made prominent in the sixties with flower power and peace brother . . . get on the peace train.
John Clarke came out with this devastatingly satirical version of Gibran's set-piece - (which I was glad to trot out . . . the John Clarke version . . .when my daughter told me she had discovered Gibran and would follow him to the ends of the earth)
Clarke called it THE HALF-YEARLY PROPHET
And a Punter came forth, which was not unusual, and said Speak to us of Race 5 at Randwick.
And he answered and said:
Goodness me, is that the time?
People of Moron, I say to you, Wisdom is not in others. It is in ourselves. We are not others. Other people are. We are us. And yet they are not Them. They are merely an Us which does not include anybody here. Any questions so far? The world is a seamless cloth. Take shelter in it but do not expect it to fit.
Love and Understanding are but winds that bear the spirit.
Love may be given but cannot be taken.
Understanding can be neither given nor taken but is the string in the bow of Life.
We are not Us either, incidentally, I should make this clear.
Just a small one thanks.
Everything is its own opposite.
Paradox is that which is not paradoxical.
Only the living know death. Only the dead are living.
Only the lonely, dum dum dum dumdedoowah, know the way I feel tonight.
Jameson's if they've got it.
A cow has many windows, but only one rudder.
Reason is a tool. Try to remember where you left it.
If you are rich and you would give, give not your money.
The poor know nought of money. Give them of yourself.
A smile, a pat on the head, something of that order.
And he beckoned to the pilot.
I must take rest for a time, he said, possibly on Venus.
And he was gone.