Union Agreement Gives Jetstar Flexibility
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Union Agreement Gives Jetstar Flexibility
Sat "Weekend Australian"
Union agreement gives Jetstar flexibility
By Steve Creedy
January 31, 2004
A KEY Qantas union has agreed to accept flexible working practices in a new ground handling subsidiary that will allow low-cost offshoot Jetstar to reduce aircraft turnaround times to as little as 25 minutes.
The new company, Express Ground Handling, will operate under a greenfields enterprise bargaining agreement ratified yesterday with the Transport Workers Union.
EGH has signed a "performance driven" contract with Jetstar to provide ramp and baggage handling services at Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane airports.
Jetstar chief executive Alan Joyce said the new arrangements, which were still being finalised at other ports, would allow the carrier to "set new Australian benchmarks for aircraft turn times".
The agreement with the TWU keeps Qantas pay rates and classifications but reflects low-cost carrier working conditions.
TWU federal secretary John Allan said the union believed the new company and EBA was a better option to the alternative, which would have involved Qantas employees tendering for the jobs.
The agreement also meant permanent part-time Qantas workers could apply for the jobs at the new subsidiary.
"The guys are on Qantas rates of pay ... standard hours, shift penalties and so forth," he said. "The actual performance is highly related to how Jetstar want to do their operations."
Mr Allan said he understood the airline wanted each aircraft to fly four legs a day and this was contingent on a 25-minute turnaround.
He said loading and unloading jobs now performed by two people would be done by the same person, leading to a more streamlined workforce.
"Cleaning will be done by flight attendants, and our guys will only be cleaning at night," he said.
Reducing turnaround times allows airlines to make better use of aircraft and brings down unit costs.
Virgin aims for a 30-minute turnaround by loading and unloading passengers through front and rear aircraft doors, minimising catering requirements and getting flight attendants to clean planes. It can also get check-in staff to help with baggage handling.
But spokesman David Huttner said yesterday Virgin would not move to match Qantas.
"We can do less than 30 minutes and we have done even less than 25," Mr Huttner said. "But we focus on 30 to allow a reasonable amount of time to look after the wellbeing of our staff and guests."
Mr Huttner is still sceptical Jetstar can match Virgin's low costs and said he doubted it could achieve the kind of staff flexibility Virgin enjoyed.
"Our efficiencies are gained not by hurrying but by multi-skilling people to ensure the most effective operation," he said.
Jetstar has said it will handle its own customer service at the big three airports when it takes off in May and is finalising negotiations at other airports.
It is expected to detail its fares and route structure sometime after Qantas releases its half-yearly results on February 19.
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Union agreement gives Jetstar flexibility
By Steve Creedy
January 31, 2004
A KEY Qantas union has agreed to accept flexible working practices in a new ground handling subsidiary that will allow low-cost offshoot Jetstar to reduce aircraft turnaround times to as little as 25 minutes.
The new company, Express Ground Handling, will operate under a greenfields enterprise bargaining agreement ratified yesterday with the Transport Workers Union.
EGH has signed a "performance driven" contract with Jetstar to provide ramp and baggage handling services at Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane airports.
Jetstar chief executive Alan Joyce said the new arrangements, which were still being finalised at other ports, would allow the carrier to "set new Australian benchmarks for aircraft turn times".
The agreement with the TWU keeps Qantas pay rates and classifications but reflects low-cost carrier working conditions.
TWU federal secretary John Allan said the union believed the new company and EBA was a better option to the alternative, which would have involved Qantas employees tendering for the jobs.
The agreement also meant permanent part-time Qantas workers could apply for the jobs at the new subsidiary.
"The guys are on Qantas rates of pay ... standard hours, shift penalties and so forth," he said. "The actual performance is highly related to how Jetstar want to do their operations."
Mr Allan said he understood the airline wanted each aircraft to fly four legs a day and this was contingent on a 25-minute turnaround.
He said loading and unloading jobs now performed by two people would be done by the same person, leading to a more streamlined workforce.
"Cleaning will be done by flight attendants, and our guys will only be cleaning at night," he said.
Reducing turnaround times allows airlines to make better use of aircraft and brings down unit costs.
Virgin aims for a 30-minute turnaround by loading and unloading passengers through front and rear aircraft doors, minimising catering requirements and getting flight attendants to clean planes. It can also get check-in staff to help with baggage handling.
But spokesman David Huttner said yesterday Virgin would not move to match Qantas.
"We can do less than 30 minutes and we have done even less than 25," Mr Huttner said. "But we focus on 30 to allow a reasonable amount of time to look after the wellbeing of our staff and guests."
Mr Huttner is still sceptical Jetstar can match Virgin's low costs and said he doubted it could achieve the kind of staff flexibility Virgin enjoyed.
"Our efficiencies are gained not by hurrying but by multi-skilling people to ensure the most effective operation," he said.
Jetstar has said it will handle its own customer service at the big three airports when it takes off in May and is finalising negotiations at other airports.
It is expected to detail its fares and route structure sometime after Qantas releases its half-yearly results on February 19.
============================================
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Mr Allan said he understood the airline wanted each aircraft to fly four legs a day and this was contingent on a 25-minute turnaround.
To realise 25 minute turnarounds with a pax number above about 75%, EVERYTHING needs to be precisely co-ordinated - APU or ground power operational and available; the aerobridge to be positioned within a couple of minutes of block in; ground staff waiting; refuellers ready to hook up (and not delayed elsewhere; no aircraft defects that have arisen on the preceding sector, and are likely to delay boarding.
These are SOME of considerations.
By far and away though, imho, the single BIGGEST factor that affects turnaround times are the SLF.
Elderly pax, pax travelling with children, disabled passengers, wheelchair pax, passengers who are just plain slow, will each add extra time, and with flights running at close to max seating capacity I have experienced times in the order of 17 minutes, or thereabouts, for de-planing ONLY.
With flights operating over meal periods, the containers left behind from carry-on food and drinks can treble the cleaning time of the F/A's.
"We can do less than 30 minutes and we have done even less than 25," Mr Huttner said. "But we focus on 30 to allow a reasonable amount of time to look after the wellbeing of our staff and guests." This is far more realistic, from my experience - the 5 minutes makes ALL the difference between an on time pushback, and incurring a chain of delays that then affect ALL following services.
To realise 25 minute turnarounds with a pax number above about 75%, EVERYTHING needs to be precisely co-ordinated - APU or ground power operational and available; the aerobridge to be positioned within a couple of minutes of block in; ground staff waiting; refuellers ready to hook up (and not delayed elsewhere; no aircraft defects that have arisen on the preceding sector, and are likely to delay boarding.
These are SOME of considerations.
By far and away though, imho, the single BIGGEST factor that affects turnaround times are the SLF.
Elderly pax, pax travelling with children, disabled passengers, wheelchair pax, passengers who are just plain slow, will each add extra time, and with flights running at close to max seating capacity I have experienced times in the order of 17 minutes, or thereabouts, for de-planing ONLY.
With flights operating over meal periods, the containers left behind from carry-on food and drinks can treble the cleaning time of the F/A's.
"We can do less than 30 minutes and we have done even less than 25," Mr Huttner said. "But we focus on 30 to allow a reasonable amount of time to look after the wellbeing of our staff and guests." This is far more realistic, from my experience - the 5 minutes makes ALL the difference between an on time pushback, and incurring a chain of delays that then affect ALL following services.
Kap,
You've obviously never seen a true lo-co in action-
Don't use 'em. Stand offs allow both front and rear stairs to be utilised.
Yep, every time. Part of their contract with penalties if they aren't.
- Are waiting at the gate for the aircrafts arrival. Check-in closes 40mins before STD even if the aircraft is late.
Which meals would they be? None are served. There is the odd soft drink can and chip wrapper (but not that many as the punters have to PAY, even for a coke), which are gathered before landing. I've had FAs reporting "Ready for boarding" within 3 minutes of the last de-plane.
European Lo-Cos schedule 20min turn-arounds (I believe South-west schedule 15) and routinely make them.
Welcome to the Airline business in the 21st century.
You've obviously never seen a true lo-co in action-
the aerobridge to be positioned
refuellers ready to hook up
Elderly pax, pax travelling with children, disabled passengers, wheelchair pax, passengers who are just plain slow
With flights operating over meal periods, the containers left behind from carry-on food and drinks can treble the cleaning time of the F/A's.
European Lo-Cos schedule 20min turn-arounds (I believe South-west schedule 15) and routinely make them.
Welcome to the Airline business in the 21st century.
Props are for boats!
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Wiz ,
Quite true except that Southwest found that the business traveller was the best turnaround client and the Holiday maker the worst.
Of course in the Carribean my old company turned around an Otter and Dash in an hour and thats pushing them every inch of the way
Sheep
Quite true except that Southwest found that the business traveller was the best turnaround client and the Holiday maker the worst.
Of course in the Carribean my old company turned around an Otter and Dash in an hour and thats pushing them every inch of the way
Sheep
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I'm gonna have to agree with Kaptain M. and to some degree with Wizofoz.. starting with wiz's commenst that a true lo-cost carrier can make turn of 15 minutes .................... true I've seen turn on 80% pax loads done in 11 minutes.
that was achieved with a full tech crew and cabin crew compliment cleaning plus at least 6 ground staff assisting as well.
As it was a Tech crew change on that service the new Captain was basically doing is walk around as the beacon was turned off and the F/O was in the flight deck ready to start setting the ship up before the operating crew had finilised all their checks and packed up all their charts.
Now it can be done and it has been done but................. as Kap said there are alot of consideration which on an every day scenario will cause delays.
Wheelchairs, mother with infant elderly pax and so on...........
Wheelchairs are the worst as nothing can take place until they are seated and strapped in (trust me a lenghty process especially when the pax is ruther large).
Your comments regarding the aerobridge,.................. yes true but don't be confused with how quickly an aerobridge can be put on a plane, we are talking about a 30 seconds process. when you look at a full stand-off you have to consider (europe is an example) weather !!! boarding is dramattically slower when boarding through rain, try and push two sets of stairs to an A/C when it's wet and wind gusting .......... (not so easy !!) bridge would be much quicker.
And last but not least you can get the ship ready and you'll find that pax are still moving about the cabin trying to store their cary-on baggage.
A fair call Wiz and I totally agree it can be done and it will be done again and again, but its not realistic to schedulle A/C with that turn around time as you are rushing crew to prepare you are rushing ground crew to get people on and you are rushing pax to get on, it may just work ............. but it will fail soon or later.
That's without even talking about engineering requirements for daily checks and sign off's or for the refuller who has to load 15000 kgs of fuel for a trip to Perth or Darwin. every comment I read had its merit and value except offcourse for THREE BARS, who obviously does not like VB and childishly passes comment when it has nothing to do with being smarter or not , its a comment made by keeping in mind a realistic approach to a busy turn-around (which by your comments you indicate that you have no idea what it takes to do one)
Cheers
Red
that was achieved with a full tech crew and cabin crew compliment cleaning plus at least 6 ground staff assisting as well.
As it was a Tech crew change on that service the new Captain was basically doing is walk around as the beacon was turned off and the F/O was in the flight deck ready to start setting the ship up before the operating crew had finilised all their checks and packed up all their charts.
Now it can be done and it has been done but................. as Kap said there are alot of consideration which on an every day scenario will cause delays.
Wheelchairs, mother with infant elderly pax and so on...........
Wheelchairs are the worst as nothing can take place until they are seated and strapped in (trust me a lenghty process especially when the pax is ruther large).
Your comments regarding the aerobridge,.................. yes true but don't be confused with how quickly an aerobridge can be put on a plane, we are talking about a 30 seconds process. when you look at a full stand-off you have to consider (europe is an example) weather !!! boarding is dramattically slower when boarding through rain, try and push two sets of stairs to an A/C when it's wet and wind gusting .......... (not so easy !!) bridge would be much quicker.
And last but not least you can get the ship ready and you'll find that pax are still moving about the cabin trying to store their cary-on baggage.
A fair call Wiz and I totally agree it can be done and it will be done again and again, but its not realistic to schedulle A/C with that turn around time as you are rushing crew to prepare you are rushing ground crew to get people on and you are rushing pax to get on, it may just work ............. but it will fail soon or later.
That's without even talking about engineering requirements for daily checks and sign off's or for the refuller who has to load 15000 kgs of fuel for a trip to Perth or Darwin. every comment I read had its merit and value except offcourse for THREE BARS, who obviously does not like VB and childishly passes comment when it has nothing to do with being smarter or not , its a comment made by keeping in mind a realistic approach to a busy turn-around (which by your comments you indicate that you have no idea what it takes to do one)
Cheers
Red
Grandpa Aerotart
If your schedule relies on 25 minute turn arounds you WILL be running late a lot...it's that simple and for all the reasons mentioned above.
The real world has a way of laying waste to beancounter theories...and what's really funny is they never learn.
Chuck
The real world has a way of laying waste to beancounter theories...and what's really funny is they never learn.
Chuck
Evertonian
Too right Chimbu! I know we used to have 35mins on the 767 & A320, but not necessarily because they couldn't be done quicker, it was mainly to pad out the schedule & by Christ, we needed it near the end!
On a brighter note, I've been involved in a 28minute turnaround of a 747-200!
On a brighter note, I've been involved in a 28minute turnaround of a 747-200!
I am somewhat intrigued by the "hoping for each aircraft to fly four legs per day" comment. Where are they planning to operate to, maybe only Perth?
On another note, I recall EastWestLoco detailing some sort of a record turnaround of an F28 at Devonport, but would agree that whilst occasional miracles can be performed (particularly in small ports when there is only one aircraft to handle), it certainly won't happen in SYD, MEL, BNE or other busy airports.
On another note, I recall EastWestLoco detailing some sort of a record turnaround of an F28 at Devonport, but would agree that whilst occasional miracles can be performed (particularly in small ports when there is only one aircraft to handle), it certainly won't happen in SYD, MEL, BNE or other busy airports.
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The guys are on Qantas rates of pay ... standard hours, shift penalties and so forth
Pleased to hear that the rates are up - just hope that it does not go the same way as GO etc
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..stuff the turnaround times - the real juice in this argument has been picked up by rescue 1 and chimbu warrior..
.."hope to fly 4 legs a day" - u better damn well fly at least 4 legs a day or this ain't no low-cost carrier, and your turnaround times would be irrelevant. This must have been an error.
.."QF rates of pay..standard hours, shift penalties, etc". This is what happens when you put a dumb oirishman in charge. Labour costs are one of the most significant differentiators between full-service and low-cost airlines. By adopting QF's ludicrous pay-rates on the ramp this certainly won't be low cost. Jetstar ramp boys will still earn more than Jetstar FO's! I wonder where the flexibility comes in? Low cost carriers need flexible and multi-skilled workforces - I don't see this being promulgated here. Just wait until a simply issue outside the square becomes a union debacle - "that's not in the agreement"...
But you know what? It doesn't really matter what cost it comes in at...it's purpose is far more strategic. Starve VB. And I have been a part of a similar strategy in a previous life overseas, and it worked but at a cost - but long-term it was a better option than allowing the upstart to stuff the industry.
Finally, I hear all the arguments re-turnaround times. Don't you just love VB claiming the moral high ground by saying "the extra 5 minutes allows us to look after the wellbeing of our staff and guests". Bollocks. If that was the criteria then turnaround times would be in excess of an hour. 5 minutes makes stuff all difference. Anything under 40 minutes creates tension, stress, and pressure - and all you gentlemen should know that in those circumstances mistakes are bound to occur - and who's gonna have to live and deal with them? You blokes.
Good luck.
.."hope to fly 4 legs a day" - u better damn well fly at least 4 legs a day or this ain't no low-cost carrier, and your turnaround times would be irrelevant. This must have been an error.
.."QF rates of pay..standard hours, shift penalties, etc". This is what happens when you put a dumb oirishman in charge. Labour costs are one of the most significant differentiators between full-service and low-cost airlines. By adopting QF's ludicrous pay-rates on the ramp this certainly won't be low cost. Jetstar ramp boys will still earn more than Jetstar FO's! I wonder where the flexibility comes in? Low cost carriers need flexible and multi-skilled workforces - I don't see this being promulgated here. Just wait until a simply issue outside the square becomes a union debacle - "that's not in the agreement"...
But you know what? It doesn't really matter what cost it comes in at...it's purpose is far more strategic. Starve VB. And I have been a part of a similar strategy in a previous life overseas, and it worked but at a cost - but long-term it was a better option than allowing the upstart to stuff the industry.
Finally, I hear all the arguments re-turnaround times. Don't you just love VB claiming the moral high ground by saying "the extra 5 minutes allows us to look after the wellbeing of our staff and guests". Bollocks. If that was the criteria then turnaround times would be in excess of an hour. 5 minutes makes stuff all difference. Anything under 40 minutes creates tension, stress, and pressure - and all you gentlemen should know that in those circumstances mistakes are bound to occur - and who's gonna have to live and deal with them? You blokes.
Good luck.
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Why not sieze on a perfect publicity opportunity? I know I would...
"We can do less than 30 minutes and we have done even less than 25," Mr Huttner said. "But we focus on 30 to allow a reasonable amount of time to look after the wellbeing of our staff and guests."
The general Joe gets sucked in by this so well done.
BTW have you ever surfed the net for fares? How often can you get a cheaper QF than a VB anyways... Its all about the advertising...
"We can do less than 30 minutes and we have done even less than 25," Mr Huttner said. "But we focus on 30 to allow a reasonable amount of time to look after the wellbeing of our staff and guests."
The general Joe gets sucked in by this so well done.
BTW have you ever surfed the net for fares? How often can you get a cheaper QF than a VB anyways... Its all about the advertising...
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Legs
Maybe, when they say "leg", they mean that SYD-OOL-SYD is one leg, i.e a return trip. Fitting 8 SYD-OOLs into a day would be pretty tight. Or, maybe because Jetstar will operate a lot of longer sectors (2-3 hours, not really long I know!!!), such as SYD-TSV,HTI etc, that 4 of these legs will make a tight schedule also. But, at the end of the day, each aircraft won't operate the same number of legs, as depanding on the length of the routes each aircraft fly, some will do more than others. 4 must be an average figure.
I think though that the big surprise and interest is not where Jetstar fly (except for the new routes that have never been flown by an Australian airline before), but what changes will occur with QF mainline. Will mainline resume flights on HBA-MEL, BNE-ROK etc (which apparantly get a lot of suits on board and plenty of full Y fares) or will these ports be just served by Jetstar? End of Feb ain't too far away.
I think though that the big surprise and interest is not where Jetstar fly (except for the new routes that have never been flown by an Australian airline before), but what changes will occur with QF mainline. Will mainline resume flights on HBA-MEL, BNE-ROK etc (which apparantly get a lot of suits on board and plenty of full Y fares) or will these ports be just served by Jetstar? End of Feb ain't too far away.
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Have any of you guys turned a B737 or A320. Thirty minutes is easy. The 737's have magic carpets which make it a doddle and when it's finished you have a 30 to 60 minute break. Wow, thats really hard. 3 hours on 5 hours down time.
Ramp staff will never earn more than Pilots at JetStar, not when they are using Express Ground Handling the new ground handler set up by QF.
Ramp staff will never earn more than Pilots at JetStar, not when they are using Express Ground Handling the new ground handler set up by QF.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
With flights operating over meal periods, the containers left behind from carry-on food and drinks can treble the cleaning time of the F/A's.
"Which meals would they be? None are served."
Ummm....the ones the pax buy prior to the flight, and carry onboard
The guts of being able to have quick turnarounds is how co-operative the PASSENGERS are willing to be, wheelchair and disabled pax excluded.
The "dirty tricks" lists are undoubtedly something that other PPRuNers who work as ground staff will be able to fill us in on, stuff that delays flights eg. pax with check-in baggage who go missing at boarding time; pax who wait until the aircraft door has closed, and then demand to get off (for a variety of reasons...sick, scared, left the dog in the car); pax who have gone to sleep during the flight and won't wake up at disembarkation time; pax who go into the toilet on arrival...and stay there!!
Stuff that might mean forfeiting the price of their ticket - but a cheap form of sabotage!
Through flights are a different kettle of fish - a walk in the park to achieve a 15 minute "block in to block out", all going well.
But a turn around, where EVERYTHING has to be taken off and the return load put on in 25 minutes, would - from my experience - have about a 70% overall success rate.
As Chimbu Chuck states, "The real world has a way of laying waste to beancounter theories...and what's really funny is they never learn.
How true! They seem to think they can re-invent the wheel...by starting with a square one!
And several months later (about 12 usually), finally realise that what was in practice was the result of 20 years or more of carving, shaping, and refinement, but in the learning process they have COST the company MORE due to re-scheds and the occasional cancellation!!
"Which meals would they be? None are served."
Ummm....the ones the pax buy prior to the flight, and carry onboard
The guts of being able to have quick turnarounds is how co-operative the PASSENGERS are willing to be, wheelchair and disabled pax excluded.
The "dirty tricks" lists are undoubtedly something that other PPRuNers who work as ground staff will be able to fill us in on, stuff that delays flights eg. pax with check-in baggage who go missing at boarding time; pax who wait until the aircraft door has closed, and then demand to get off (for a variety of reasons...sick, scared, left the dog in the car); pax who have gone to sleep during the flight and won't wake up at disembarkation time; pax who go into the toilet on arrival...and stay there!!
Stuff that might mean forfeiting the price of their ticket - but a cheap form of sabotage!
Through flights are a different kettle of fish - a walk in the park to achieve a 15 minute "block in to block out", all going well.
But a turn around, where EVERYTHING has to be taken off and the return load put on in 25 minutes, would - from my experience - have about a 70% overall success rate.
As Chimbu Chuck states, "The real world has a way of laying waste to beancounter theories...and what's really funny is they never learn.
How true! They seem to think they can re-invent the wheel...by starting with a square one!
And several months later (about 12 usually), finally realise that what was in practice was the result of 20 years or more of carving, shaping, and refinement, but in the learning process they have COST the company MORE due to re-scheds and the occasional cancellation!!
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If a flt time is usually scheduled at 1hr50mins, why cant they make it 1hr 55mins and the next flight 5mins longer as well to make up for the short turntimes in places like MEL / SYD / BNE?
My 2cents...
My 2cents...
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
By adding extra time to scheds it would provide an opportunity for the opposition to capitalise upon..."Why waste extra, unnecessary time in the air with Company X, when you can spend it doing the things YOU want, on the ground, when you fly with us.".
You don't work with ATC do you, westelevengenius?
You don't work with ATC do you, westelevengenius?
