Some truth about the ML incident
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PT,
Insults are easy to fight with insults, rhetoric is easy to fight with rhetoric.
If you think that the anti-NAS stuff is dribbling out of the "proverbial" (I will not reveal the translation, in consideration of everyone else's sensibilities - and you really shouldn't pick words that aren't even that hard to look up in an online dictionary) then prove it - attack it from the high ground of reason, logic and fact.
Insults are easy to fight with insults, rhetoric is easy to fight with rhetoric.
If you think that the anti-NAS stuff is dribbling out of the "proverbial" (I will not reveal the translation, in consideration of everyone else's sensibilities - and you really shouldn't pick words that aren't even that hard to look up in an online dictionary) then prove it - attack it from the high ground of reason, logic and fact.
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Snarek
It is very hard to contribute to this thread. As you would know, most of us are constrained from revealing facts which are known to us by virtue of the position we hold. So, from what I do know, I will point out those parts of your ‘truth’ which are incorrect.
Most of this statement is wrong.
Both your interpretation and the reference to separation at the time of the TCAS RA are incorrect.
This is entirely incorrect.
As to the greater question of whether or not this was a NAS failure, this will be determined by the investigation. The indisputable fact is that this incident could not have occurred on the 26th of November, as the Cessna could not have ended up ‘sandwiched’ between the two IFR levels. The Cessna’s original clearance (to get into that position) would have included planning, taking into account separation, sequencing and other factors.
By its very nature, Class E means that the ‘unexpected/unplanned’ will occur more frequently, thereby leading to more last minute changes of plan, more delays and more expense.
PS: Your continued attacks on the pro-safety (anti-NAS) side as 'union scare-mongering' etc. are bringing you dangerously close to 'Winstunianism' - a tag I am sure you would be keen to avoid.
It is very hard to contribute to this thread. As you would know, most of us are constrained from revealing facts which are known to us by virtue of the position we hold. So, from what I do know, I will point out those parts of your ‘truth’ which are incorrect.
Cessna was given code and turned right 90 degrees from the direct Canty ML track under ATC control! This turn directed the Cessna closer to the Virgin.The Cessna flies three minutes more under ATC control.
Cessna hears Virgin decent modified to 18,000. Virgin has Cessna visual and requests descent through Cessnas level, this is denied due to lack of lateral separation (my interpretation: this is an interesting point, the Cessna is still VFR in E, the rules allow this, has it occured the TCAS alert may not have triggered. Nontheless it also shows the controller was separating the aircraft as if they were both IFR).
So it certainly wasn't a NAS problem because both aircraft were being separated in exactly the same way they would have in C …….
As to the greater question of whether or not this was a NAS failure, this will be determined by the investigation. The indisputable fact is that this incident could not have occurred on the 26th of November, as the Cessna could not have ended up ‘sandwiched’ between the two IFR levels. The Cessna’s original clearance (to get into that position) would have included planning, taking into account separation, sequencing and other factors.
By its very nature, Class E means that the ‘unexpected/unplanned’ will occur more frequently, thereby leading to more last minute changes of plan, more delays and more expense.
PS: Your continued attacks on the pro-safety (anti-NAS) side as 'union scare-mongering' etc. are bringing you dangerously close to 'Winstunianism' - a tag I am sure you would be keen to avoid.
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The fact that VFR aircraft are allowed into E, without clearance, and without the requirement to monitor a common frequency in that airspace is sheer stupidity.
The fact that Dick Smith and the other propagants of the NAS defend this (if you can call simpistic schoolchild rationale as defence) is itself, indefensible.
I mean, how hard is it to say 'We accept with 99% of the users that this is an unsafe idea, and now we will require all aircraft in E to monitor the same frequency'. This would placate ALOT of the concerns from the opposers and may even make the new system somewhat 'safer'.
Obviously, as Dick Smith knows all, and the rest of us are just simpletons (re: the CB radio and sunday driving analogy) we have no idea.
Pride comes before a fall. The problem is that someone else will be the one to do the falling - from saomewhere between A045 an FL185.
The fact that Dick Smith and the other propagants of the NAS defend this (if you can call simpistic schoolchild rationale as defence) is itself, indefensible.
I mean, how hard is it to say 'We accept with 99% of the users that this is an unsafe idea, and now we will require all aircraft in E to monitor the same frequency'. This would placate ALOT of the concerns from the opposers and may even make the new system somewhat 'safer'.
Obviously, as Dick Smith knows all, and the rest of us are just simpletons (re: the CB radio and sunday driving analogy) we have no idea.
Pride comes before a fall. The problem is that someone else will be the one to do the falling - from saomewhere between A045 an FL185.
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CC,
I think you are VERY correct with regard to PR. I think that the anti-NAS groups have done very poorly in the PR department.
The public need to be convinced - and I think that either the PR money should be spent on better talent, or they should throw more money at it or BOTH.
Nothing like telling the truth - with a bit of artisitic 'licence' to get the message across.
After all, more public will die in an airliner midair than pilots or ATCers (or Ministers or adventurers for that matter) and they have a right to know what they extra risks they are being exposed to and who are the 'brains'behind it.
I think you are VERY correct with regard to PR. I think that the anti-NAS groups have done very poorly in the PR department.
The public need to be convinced - and I think that either the PR money should be spent on better talent, or they should throw more money at it or BOTH.
Nothing like telling the truth - with a bit of artisitic 'licence' to get the message across.
After all, more public will die in an airliner midair than pilots or ATCers (or Ministers or adventurers for that matter) and they have a right to know what they extra risks they are being exposed to and who are the 'brains'behind it.
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poor babies
Listen lads and girls. Why dont you all quit complaining and just operate like pros in the asigned airspace, whatever it may be. The guys that bag the new airspace seem to know all its problems, so why not just compensate for it, its called airmanship.
You guys would poop your pants if you had to fly into places like Dar Es Salaam and Entebbe. The other day was crazy here in Dar, the new radar failed and there was Emirates, Ethiopian, Kenyan, SAA, 2x Air Tanz and Oman Air and at least 5 regionals, and maybe 10 bugsmashers. 1 controller sh!tting his pants, and everyone dealt with it like pros. I could not get a word in for 30nm and had to separate myself from others by listening out.
I can just see you ladies getting on prune and crying about it. Just deal with it, adapt, get on with your lives.
You guys would poop your pants if you had to fly into places like Dar Es Salaam and Entebbe. The other day was crazy here in Dar, the new radar failed and there was Emirates, Ethiopian, Kenyan, SAA, 2x Air Tanz and Oman Air and at least 5 regionals, and maybe 10 bugsmashers. 1 controller sh!tting his pants, and everyone dealt with it like pros. I could not get a word in for 30nm and had to separate myself from others by listening out.
I can just see you ladies getting on prune and crying about it. Just deal with it, adapt, get on with your lives.
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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Strewth PT, Gimana? , I went bush for a couple of days and missed it. (Tolong ulangi
)
Woomera, Ma'af, saya tahu ini tidak cocok bahasa indonesia,Tidak apa apa.
sampai jumpa.
)Woomera, Ma'af, saya tahu ini tidak cocok bahasa indonesia,Tidak apa apa.
sampai jumpa.
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helldog,
Who says they don't operate like pros? This forum isn't the airwaves. If people don't, or do, like the airspace then at least this forum gives them the opportunity to discuss, complain, argue, and debate about it. You might have noticed other threads discussing just what you suggest - how to get on as safely as possible in the new airspace.
...
Why dont you all quit complaining and just operate like pros in the asigned airspace
had to separate myself from others by listening out
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Helldog. you're a real hero, and congratulations, you have demonstrated your complete ignorance on NAS.
We here in Oz don't give a stuff how you do it over there, we used to have a safe system ( however antiquated it was ) with no mid airs between lighties and jets ( unlike some other countries ). The fact that you went into one airport on one day without control, and did'nt run into anything is meaningless, 85% of our country is non radar covered, and we have jets and lighties co existing at non controlled aerodromes every day.
These idiots are trying to take away the only defence we have against mid airs, that is, compulsory uase of radio at busy airports and controlled ( procedurely ) airspace.
We here in Oz don't give a stuff how you do it over there, we used to have a safe system ( however antiquated it was ) with no mid airs between lighties and jets ( unlike some other countries ). The fact that you went into one airport on one day without control, and did'nt run into anything is meaningless, 85% of our country is non radar covered, and we have jets and lighties co existing at non controlled aerodromes every day.
These idiots are trying to take away the only defence we have against mid airs, that is, compulsory uase of radio at busy airports and controlled ( procedurely ) airspace.
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fair point
Hey cunning. Very true statement about my ignorance. Not total...but. True I know jack or next to about the new airspace over there. But that is not relevant to the point I am making.
I do not wish to start a fight with anybody. There was another topic where Dick Smith was posting. People there...some of them asked good, intelligent questions and were shown due respect. I dont knock guys having a rational discussion.
Perhaps I should have made it more clear in my last pots who I was attacking. Some people are writing stuff on here which is just mindless dribble. It gets old very quick. I just hate to be reading an interesting topic and then to come across such dribble. Those guys that have nothing better to do than talk cr@p should goto the jetblast forum. Go on there and tell everyone that controllers are stupid and dont know their job etc.
I am not saying I am a real hero. I just wonder what some guys that are so scared of midairs there would do. What would they do in the States, and other places that use the same system?They have much higher traffic density. Would they be to scared to fly there?
Another thing I dont know much about was this Virgin thing. But seems many people here knew exactly what happened. Fifty different versions of the truth! But hey sometimes systems break down...TCAS did its job.
Now every little incident is a big, nay, huge deal. Just like when someone dies under strange circumstances in a hospital. First one hits the news then every death whith a hint of malpractice is on the news for the next few weeks. People start to think that our doctors and hospitals are hopeless. Same hysteria is happening right here.
Another thing that is very anoying. Jet drivers and IFR jocks, stop knocking VFR guys. What the hell, I bet half of you were instructors once. Pumping out GFPTs and PPLs when you yourself did not have your IFR.
Again I am not knocking the people with concerns who discuss things as they should be. Just the ones that chime in with the little backhanders noone wants to hear.
Honestly last time I heard such a comotion was when Costelo anounced that they were raising taxes on tampons.
I do not wish to start a fight with anybody. There was another topic where Dick Smith was posting. People there...some of them asked good, intelligent questions and were shown due respect. I dont knock guys having a rational discussion.
Perhaps I should have made it more clear in my last pots who I was attacking. Some people are writing stuff on here which is just mindless dribble. It gets old very quick. I just hate to be reading an interesting topic and then to come across such dribble. Those guys that have nothing better to do than talk cr@p should goto the jetblast forum. Go on there and tell everyone that controllers are stupid and dont know their job etc.
I am not saying I am a real hero. I just wonder what some guys that are so scared of midairs there would do. What would they do in the States, and other places that use the same system?They have much higher traffic density. Would they be to scared to fly there?
Another thing I dont know much about was this Virgin thing. But seems many people here knew exactly what happened. Fifty different versions of the truth! But hey sometimes systems break down...TCAS did its job.
Now every little incident is a big, nay, huge deal. Just like when someone dies under strange circumstances in a hospital. First one hits the news then every death whith a hint of malpractice is on the news for the next few weeks. People start to think that our doctors and hospitals are hopeless. Same hysteria is happening right here.
Another thing that is very anoying. Jet drivers and IFR jocks, stop knocking VFR guys. What the hell, I bet half of you were instructors once. Pumping out GFPTs and PPLs when you yourself did not have your IFR.
Again I am not knocking the people with concerns who discuss things as they should be. Just the ones that chime in with the little backhanders noone wants to hear.
Honestly last time I heard such a comotion was when Costelo anounced that they were raising taxes on tampons.
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What would they do in the States, and other places that use the same system?
Once again, ausNAS is not the US system , no matter how many liars claim it is.
ps.
TCAS did its job
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Howdy Ferris,
Maybe your right about me not having a handle on this debate. I do not wish to enter it. I was just making a point about some comments I read. So I do not need to grasp it fully.
With the TCAS comment. Yes it was a last minute arse save. But I stand by what I said. It is your last chance if all else fails. Thankfully this time disaster was averted.
Anyway as I belive, and I am sure many others, I dont think I will be able contribute anything further to this debate. Anything of interest and relevance that is. I just mad a point thats all. If anyone wishes to bag me, go for it. I will not reply. but will read with inerest. Be nice now
Maybe your right about me not having a handle on this debate. I do not wish to enter it. I was just making a point about some comments I read. So I do not need to grasp it fully.
With the TCAS comment. Yes it was a last minute arse save. But I stand by what I said. It is your last chance if all else fails. Thankfully this time disaster was averted.
Anyway as I belive, and I am sure many others, I dont think I will be able contribute anything further to this debate. Anything of interest and relevance that is. I just mad a point thats all. If anyone wishes to bag me, go for it. I will not reply. but will read with inerest. Be nice now
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helldog
The whole point of our dissatisfaction with this new airspace is that TCAS is not save your arse, if everything else goes wrong anymore. They have taken away some previous safeguards and now expect RPT and others to rely on TCAS as a primary means of collision avoidance not as the last link in the chain.
The whole point of our dissatisfaction with this new airspace is that TCAS is not save your arse, if everything else goes wrong anymore. They have taken away some previous safeguards and now expect RPT and others to rely on TCAS as a primary means of collision avoidance not as the last link in the chain.
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Capitan
Rubbish. The VB had visual, the ATC had knowledge and the TCAS RA was a combination of ATC direction and VB aircrew action.
My understanding is the VB crew don't think there is an issue. Prove me wrong if you will.
AK
Rubbish. The VB had visual, the ATC had knowledge and the TCAS RA was a combination of ATC direction and VB aircrew action.
My understanding is the VB crew don't think there is an issue. Prove me wrong if you will.
AK