Qantas admits Arab 'terror' blunder
I agree that, once again, highly strung emotion has come to play in the decision making process of some F/A's. Would be foolish to underestimate the possibility of emotion and intuition in reports to the Flight Deck coming from the Cabin. Have seen it myself on occassion and a good lesson.
Crew Resource Management may have given CabinCrew a bit too much power in walking off flights-have seen it myself-despite reassurances from from operating pilots.
CRM a powerful tool but maybe the Cabin Crew need some cold and hard lessons in decision making, and the responsibility and accountability that comes with it, before flippantly taking their emotional feelings as professionalism, under the guise and protection of CRM.
And in a very Australian way some of the above have dismissed the threat we are possibly engaged with. Don't think for one minute that money from a oil rich and spiritual homeland,doesn't finds it's way to the places of worship on the sub-continent and then onto similar right on our doorstep. And to hundreds of millions of these devout people Australia is at war with them. Or so is the poisoned words coming from some of their places of worship. And slowly they are learning to fight the West.
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Crew Resource Management may have given CabinCrew a bit too much power in walking off flights-have seen it myself-despite reassurances from from operating pilots.
CRM a powerful tool but maybe the Cabin Crew need some cold and hard lessons in decision making, and the responsibility and accountability that comes with it, before flippantly taking their emotional feelings as professionalism, under the guise and protection of CRM.
And in a very Australian way some of the above have dismissed the threat we are possibly engaged with. Don't think for one minute that money from a oil rich and spiritual homeland,doesn't finds it's way to the places of worship on the sub-continent and then onto similar right on our doorstep. And to hundreds of millions of these devout people Australia is at war with them. Or so is the poisoned words coming from some of their places of worship. And slowly they are learning to fight the West.
.
Props are for boats!
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QANTAS admitted Monday that its cabin staff delayed a flight because they thought four Arabs travelling as guests of Australia's national air force might be terrorists.
Australias national airforce? Is this another body I havent heard of? Bloody Journos need to go back to school. Or they are very carefully sidesteping me thinks....
Regards
Sheep
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Any Arabian person flying on an airline in this day and age, regardless of how they are dressed should be ready to be questioned and scrutinised.........paranoia by the airlines? yes ,perhaps, but Arab nationals only have themselves to blame .
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What Mainframe says makes absolute sense.
It seems people are having a go at the crew for playing it safe!
I would venture to say people might have felt differently about it if they were passengers on the plane!
A lot of people are scared to say this so I will:
Yes, there is quite a bit of non-arab terrorism in the world. But the fact is:
The VAST majority of modern day terrorists are arabs.
(Note: I did not say all arabs, as most are decent people like you and me)
Steamchicken mentions terrorism such as:
Baltic Exchange...
Canary Wharf...
Warrington...
Omagh...
Sundry incidents in the Basque country..
but fails to mention the THOUSANDS of israelis (including arabs) killed every year, week after week by palestinians, not to mention, the thousands killed in Sept 11,(also including many arabs) or the hundreds of christians killed every year in Pakistan by arab terrorist attacks. (Also don't forget the various other airline terroist attacks by arabs)
What is so "disgraceful" of being suspicious of these men because of their ethnicity? If the situation was reversed and Australians were known as terrorists, I may be annoyed by it, but would understand people being suspicious of me, if I flew on a foreign airline.
It seems people are having a go at the crew for playing it safe!
I would venture to say people might have felt differently about it if they were passengers on the plane!
A lot of people are scared to say this so I will:
Yes, there is quite a bit of non-arab terrorism in the world. But the fact is:
The VAST majority of modern day terrorists are arabs.
(Note: I did not say all arabs, as most are decent people like you and me)
Steamchicken mentions terrorism such as:
Baltic Exchange...
Canary Wharf...
Warrington...
Omagh...
Sundry incidents in the Basque country..
but fails to mention the THOUSANDS of israelis (including arabs) killed every year, week after week by palestinians, not to mention, the thousands killed in Sept 11,(also including many arabs) or the hundreds of christians killed every year in Pakistan by arab terrorist attacks. (Also don't forget the various other airline terroist attacks by arabs)
What is so "disgraceful" of being suspicious of these men because of their ethnicity? If the situation was reversed and Australians were known as terrorists, I may be annoyed by it, but would understand people being suspicious of me, if I flew on a foreign airline.
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Reminds me how the IRA sent their best female assassin to go and kill Osama Bin Laden except she got her anthrax mixed up with her tampax and killed the wrong ---t..... Doh! OOPS!
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Big Kev Nothing is disgraceful about being suspicious of passengers, infact it is good security. What is disgraceful is the crew then refusing to fly...You have a concern you voice it, you are at the gate so you have the bonafides checked. Are... travelling in a group.... booked by the Government of Australia...OK, these guys are clean now get on with your job and thanks for the concern. If this sort of procedure or similar was followed and they still refused to fly then that is disgraceful. If QF don't have a procedure to follow in cases such as these then they are way behind in not just service.
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Hey BigKev
You say the Palestinians commit terrorist acts on the Israelis?? Yeh they have a few kids with bombs strapped to their bodies on buses. Thats terrorism I agree, but so is a gunship firing missiles into a crowded marketplace and killing countless innocent civilians along with the one hamas leader they were after.
When the non-Western countries fight against oppression its terrorism, when the Western countries bomb Arab citys and invade their borders, its liberation.
As the guys earlier said, if the crew is jumpy due to the stereotypes imprinted on them due to the western media, then sure make all the usual checks, but once they are done, stop being drama queens and do your job of giving food poisoning to your passengers.
When the non-Western countries fight against oppression its terrorism, when the Western countries bomb Arab citys and invade their borders, its liberation.
As the guys earlier said, if the crew is jumpy due to the stereotypes imprinted on them due to the western media, then sure make all the usual checks, but once they are done, stop being drama queens and do your job of giving food poisoning to your passengers.
Halas
"What has the sub-continent have to do with Australia?"
The sub-continent contains around seven nations. The most problematic Pakistan.
Pakistan has been the logistical and spiritual home for some unsavoury fundamentalist groups. The war in Afganistan was won by tribesman pitted against the former Soviet war machine; no thanks political and religious backing in Pakistan. And a warm round of applause to the CIA and their provision of Stinger missiles.
The Taliban in Afganistan was pretty much bankrolled by the Pakistan military junta but the lasting efffect may be the religious guise it was done under.
Halas, ask around discretely, on the inspiration and funding of some mosques (and the US) , many lost their lives in Afganistan in Jihad! Even from temperate MidEast nations such as the UAE. You can not turn that fervour off especially in light of contradictory Foreign Policy from the West.
Pakistan is not a rich country and a fair guess as to what is not available to the public in the recent Congress report on Sept 11! Oil money from the spiritual home of Islam bankrolled the Taliban and similar within Pakistan.
How does all this affect Australia? I would suggest it already has with Bali.
Much MidEast money makes it's way to Pakistan and onto groups such as Indonesia's JI.
That is the threat and that is on the doorstep.
Bob Hawke shed a tear for Israel in the 80s. We have recently been involved in an un-popular bombing campaign and "liberation" of Iraq. Not even Bob's emotions could align us as close to US policy on Israel as the position we are in today!
The price of this alignment has been paid by thousands of US victims of terrorism. It surprises me that in threads such as this, the flippant dismissal of what we are now involved in.
It surprises me even more, a budget surplus, a government hinting at tax cuts and not an investment in security.
"What has the sub-continent have to do with Australia?"
The sub-continent contains around seven nations. The most problematic Pakistan.
Pakistan has been the logistical and spiritual home for some unsavoury fundamentalist groups. The war in Afganistan was won by tribesman pitted against the former Soviet war machine; no thanks political and religious backing in Pakistan. And a warm round of applause to the CIA and their provision of Stinger missiles.
The Taliban in Afganistan was pretty much bankrolled by the Pakistan military junta but the lasting efffect may be the religious guise it was done under.
Halas, ask around discretely, on the inspiration and funding of some mosques (and the US) , many lost their lives in Afganistan in Jihad! Even from temperate MidEast nations such as the UAE. You can not turn that fervour off especially in light of contradictory Foreign Policy from the West.
Pakistan is not a rich country and a fair guess as to what is not available to the public in the recent Congress report on Sept 11! Oil money from the spiritual home of Islam bankrolled the Taliban and similar within Pakistan.
How does all this affect Australia? I would suggest it already has with Bali.
Much MidEast money makes it's way to Pakistan and onto groups such as Indonesia's JI.
That is the threat and that is on the doorstep.
Bob Hawke shed a tear for Israel in the 80s. We have recently been involved in an un-popular bombing campaign and "liberation" of Iraq. Not even Bob's emotions could align us as close to US policy on Israel as the position we are in today!
The price of this alignment has been paid by thousands of US victims of terrorism. It surprises me that in threads such as this, the flippant dismissal of what we are now involved in.
It surprises me even more, a budget surplus, a government hinting at tax cuts and not an investment in security.
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If all you flippant smart arse twenty- twenty hindsight arseholes had been highjacked as I have been , you might be a bit paranoid as well . It wasn’t your life on the line
in this incident , it was theirs , and they made the call . In aviation safety issues , the
most conservative judgement is supposed to prevail .
in this incident , it was theirs , and they made the call . In aviation safety issues , the
most conservative judgement is supposed to prevail .
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Damned if you do.. damned if you don't.
Had something suspicious have turned up about these men, the crew would have been labelled heroes.
The cabin crew on this occassion were astute without just cause. So Geoff wants them fired.
Safety First.... or is it?
SG
Had something suspicious have turned up about these men, the crew would have been labelled heroes.
The cabin crew on this occassion were astute without just cause. So Geoff wants them fired.
Safety First.... or is it?
SG
Bottums Up
Quotes:
There doesn't seem to be one post on this thread from anyone who was there! How then can quotes such as those above be taken seriously? 
I find it almost incredulous to believe that an Australian Defence Force officer would allow his charges to travel in the alleged manner, given the hype of the past two years.
ANSA agree wholeheartedly. While both sides simply blame the other side there will be no resolution. It interesting how it seems the majority of the WASP/Anglo community simply side against the Arabs without looking at both sides.
ApocalypseThen if
does this mean the Captain should decline to depart into turbulence and challenging weather when the conservative F/O says, "I don't think we should go skipper"?
- I understand that the guys were wearing inappropriate shirts which made reference to "pilot training" and "jihad". Apparently there were communications "problems".
- Given that every successful act of terrorism seems to have been committed by a male or males of middle eastern appearance ....
- Tshirts with nasty things on them
- Apparently in addition to the shirts, they were also giving nasty looks to the crew, were seated throughout the cabin and after further investigation were booked under "House of Jihad" or something of that nature.
I find it almost incredulous to believe that an Australian Defence Force officer would allow his charges to travel in the alleged manner, given the hype of the past two years.
ANSA agree wholeheartedly. While both sides simply blame the other side there will be no resolution. It interesting how it seems the majority of the WASP/Anglo community simply side against the Arabs without looking at both sides.
ApocalypseThen if
the most conservative judgement is supposed to prevail
Agree. Somebody must know.
What was written on their shirts/caps etc?
I find it hard to believe they were booked under "House of Jihad". Even if in the sometimes liberal expression and translation of Jihad ie: Muslim struggle and recognition. Not Holy War.
Claret
The Murdoch press would never let it's view on Israel be influenced by outside lobby groups and associated business pressure. Surely we get a balanced view in Australia of MidEast issues?
What was written on their shirts/caps etc?
I find it hard to believe they were booked under "House of Jihad". Even if in the sometimes liberal expression and translation of Jihad ie: Muslim struggle and recognition. Not Holy War.
Claret
The Murdoch press would never let it's view on Israel be influenced by outside lobby groups and associated business pressure. Surely we get a balanced view in Australia of MidEast issues?
Alert!!! Alert!!!
Gentlemen,.... and Ladies,
The thing about the T-shirts and the other inflammatory remarks need to be recognised in the context of the person making the post.
I think we can accept as fact that "Cactus Jack" is a person who delights in spreading fertiliser and seeing what pops up. I'm actually surprised that the statement would have been given any credibility at all given the situation. Hardly likely that guests of the RAAF would be dressing in that manner. Really...
Please, don't lose your minds just because others around you are losing theirs. It's an obvious windup. And if anyone can verify that Cactus actually does fly an aircraft, then I'll be surprised.
But only if they can be verified too.
Gotta agree with a lot of the sentiments of posters expressing moderation though. Remember that we are at WAR!!!! Remember? The "WAR on TERROR"? A contradiction in terms if ever there was... And remember that the first casualty of war is the truth.
You know, propaganda, lies, spies, and all that mind screwing stuff.
Life's a Bitch, then you Fly.
(Unfortunately, even flying is losing it's appeal with all this madness about terrorists gripping the gullible masses)
The thing about the T-shirts and the other inflammatory remarks need to be recognised in the context of the person making the post.
I think we can accept as fact that "Cactus Jack" is a person who delights in spreading fertiliser and seeing what pops up. I'm actually surprised that the statement would have been given any credibility at all given the situation. Hardly likely that guests of the RAAF would be dressing in that manner. Really...
Please, don't lose your minds just because others around you are losing theirs. It's an obvious windup. And if anyone can verify that Cactus actually does fly an aircraft, then I'll be surprised.
But only if they can be verified too.
Gotta agree with a lot of the sentiments of posters expressing moderation though. Remember that we are at WAR!!!! Remember? The "WAR on TERROR"? A contradiction in terms if ever there was... And remember that the first casualty of war is the truth.
You know, propaganda, lies, spies, and all that mind screwing stuff.
Life's a Bitch, then you Fly.
(Unfortunately, even flying is losing it's appeal with all this madness about terrorists gripping the gullible masses)
