There is little gloating from the Yes voters, simply because there is nothing to gloat about.

I could understand a Yes vote if you genuinely believed the company was in danger and that this was the best way to save jobs and some of your pension. Unfortunately, we're all now in the morning after period (in our case 15years long), where we have to take the consequences.

It's like cutting your foot off when you have gangrene, you may have saved your life, but it doesn't take long to notice you've a foot missing.

I doubt even the Yes voters can find much to celebrate.

Its already been said but sad as the result is, the most upsetting thing is the ridiculous number of ATCO'S who couldn't be bothered to vote. I'm sure some of it is down to people not receiving ballot papers or not updating their address but still the low turnout on such an important vote is sad.

It is going to be interesting to see what the atmosphere is going to be like at work now.

AFFLECK,

Absolutely right. I have absolutely nothing to celebrate, there was nothing to win, only the chance to limit what could be lost (that's IMHO, before you all start - this thread has been back and forward over the same ground so many times, lets move on)

RS

Rumours were circulating a few weeks back that Starbucks Centre and Starbucks Technical was planning to vote Yes and that it was a done deal. That may have put some people off voting.

Some of my colleagues were all for the Yes vote, mainly those who had never worked for NATS before they pitched up at Brizzel and were therefore less cynical than I about the company's intentions. Hopefully they'll be more cynical when their new employer comes a knocking.

And to think that one of the Swanick Super Duper WMs once said I suffered from 'trust issues'. Me? Never.:rolleyes:

Not necessarily. I don't think, or at least hope, it would have influenced anybody's choice of vote but it certainly could have further muddied waters that were already not exactly crystal clear.

It was better that it was a clean vote, so to speak.

If there really were funds available for such an inducement then they can go towards any forthcoming pay deal instead :hmm:

The big issue with many staff has been that it came to this. Many feel betrayed by the government, management, airline group, all quoting previously a lot of hot air and a hidden agenda which is slowly coming to fruition...i feel sorry for NSL which undoubtedly will be a "nice little earner" for them.(although as employees with 5% shareholding we might get a fee starbucks) The biggest problem for our colleagues is that a lot of the contracts are losing money so as part of any buy out, unless these contracts can be renegotiated, expect further fragmentation of NSL and freezing or even cuts in salaries.
As for the bung? It would have been inapropriate bribing for the votes and the union were right to refuse it....howevever if management had that in their warchest then I agree the union should push hard on the pay issue. It won't make amends but it might just leave some members with a little faith in a union, before subscriptions are cancelled. :(:(

For those that voted yes I hope soon that your vote comes back to haunt you all......one thing for sure from now on in we will get all the sh1te we deserve.....if its not bad enough news to bear here up North our ATSA's have today been told of the fat of so many as we move towards NPC.....Thanks NATS for a very nice Christmas present.....not that you would ever start to care!!!!

Lets hope Mr Barron can sleep easy tonight!!!

Pay Ballot?
 

anyone think we'll get a ballot on the forthcoming pay offer?

I do hope so as I've been keeping my powder dry...again:ugh:

AFFLECK

In this case they have cut off the wrong foot :eek:


fisbangwollop


What have the ATSAs been told, fisbangwollop?
My mate up in Scottish said the ATSAs might get bad news ?

Let's just make sure we get that 4.8% minimum pay rise in Jan 2009 that the Union said we would. There must be some pot of money available if the rumours of the £1900 bung are true. If there are about 5000 NATS employees and the bung was £1900 then that's £9.5 million. NATS wage bill is about £300 million, so £9.5 million represents 3.15% of the wage bill and so it only leaves another 1.65%, which equates to £4.95 million to find. I reckon that if the Execs don't take the bonus for the new pension scheme they have brought in then that should cover it.:D

Dear oh dear.Bad news. I appreciate that some people may have genuine reasons for not voting but the ATCO turnout was very poor. However if any of those 30% were definite no voters then I'm sure they would have made sure they got a ballot paper.
I'm sure I'm not the only ATCO who now considers that their future career is not with Nats. The golden handcuffs have been unlocked and the grass just got a hell of a lot greener in foreign climes.
The atmosphere at work was already pretty depressing in the last few months,not really looking forward to being there next week.
That's took the shine off my christmas celebrations,so I'm going to descend into an alcoholic haze over the festive period and start job hunting in the new year.
Try and have a merry one folks! Cheers,rolaaand.

Barron has made a point telling us in his blog how he likes playing poker..

The game so far..

Barron, with what he first thought was a weak hand, takes his hand off the revolver he is holding under the table and starts to reach for the money,

Our powder, once dry now lies in a mess. made soggy by union members spit...

:sad:

I am new to Pprune having been enticed in by the stories of all of the threads and responses relating in particular to the Pensions debacle . I have monitored many people`s posts during this whole consultation process as Paul Barron calls it and thought to myself "they`ve said exactly what I was thinking and shown the level of passion I too have , but have done it more eloquently" , maybe this is down to familiarity with the workings of a site such as this .
However I find myself numbed by , in my opinion , the less than 100% turnout from members of the various branches in what should and has been the most important topic in many a year . An often used phrase here has been "keeping our powder dry" , something we`ve all heard from our Union bods for as long as I can remember . Well for all the good it`s done us we may as well have stuffed the said powder up our noses as apparently one can get a high from doing this - certainly won`t get one from being a member of what must be the biggest joke of a Union . It should be retitled "F..k All Prospect!" or for those with more delicate eyesight "No Prospect!".
It would be pointless going over and over all the excellent points raised over the past couple of months but my availability for AAVAs has just now become zero and my resignation from "No Prospect" was sent with the same speed as my No Vote .
To end I would hope that I can participate in further debates on Pprune with the same enthusiasm , wit and passion that many on here have shown during this sad episode - the Unions took away our right to fight over this issue and I for one cannot forgive them that or remain a member as I don`t want to give them the unwritten permission to do it to me again .
Transmission ended!

Thanks for your comment. Its unfortunate that some people are not as pragmatic as you and are still bellyaching on here about the result of a democratic ballot.

BD

HastyDeparture
I have nothing to do with the union or union matters .
By resigning your membership of the union I would hope you forgo any payrises or any other benefits the union may achieve now or in the future. As someone who continues to pay their subscriptions, even though I may not like what the union may propose, why should I subsidise any benefits you may receive for free.

Not bellyaching, I just don't see the need for you to make comments like "overwhelming" when the figures speak for themselves....in a vote in which it is well documented that you did not participate because you are not a member of the union.
If you'd bothered to read any of my other comments you'd see that I did not make any disparaging comments to any Yes voters on here, quite the opposite in fact. I have accepted the vote, I'm not happy about it, but that's the way it goes. Unfortunately, as usual, you just cannot seem to help yourself when the opportunity arises to wind somebody up.

Disbelief and disgust
 

I like most it would seem have accepted the result. However, without entering into a tirade of anger about the whole issue I wonder if it is time that as ATCO's, we should address the issues there appear to be with our union. Having been in a union for many years (in this and previous employs) I am saddened and angered by the way they handled the whole issue and frankly think it has played right into the Barron's hand (Poker or otherwise :E).

I acknowledge the support that the Union can provide to us members, but I think that the current representation (more at a higher level from what I understand) is weak and quite frankly not conducting itself in its members interest, more for their own political gain.

I can't offer an alternative (unless the T&G would open its doors) but think we need to act now to show the union and management that we are a force to be reckoned with....it's time the worm turned

I think you're right. How does one go about this process though?

I wish I knew.....time to do some research I suppose......:ugh:

I'm not a union member either. There is no option to tell the pay department that you're 'different' to other people. Nor is there an option to try and bargain by yourself, unless you're a PCG. Those who are not PCG's are in the negotiated grades and the union is the only body which can engage in collective bargaining.
My non membership of a union is nothing to do with money and I am one of the negotiated grades. Should I feel guilty about the 'free ride' I get?

BD

I'm sorry that you have some 'issues' with my posts. We're all different and the world would be a boring place if we were all the same :)

Merry Xmas :ok:
BD

That's what drives me mad about you BD, you can be a reasonable guy when you want! :}

Merry Xmas to you and all.:)

We are all screwed!

Barron will be laughing his tits off this weekend at this result.

One chance to show how we felt and stand up to Management crap and the corporate bolloxs!!

We failed and now we are going to get what we deserve.

Dont worry CTC will probably get another Starbucks.

Thats the problem with a democratic ballot, you get what the majority vote for.

BD

Homo Simpson - Seriously, cut the CTC bashing b******s, it really is getting quite boring. This affects everyone, not just ops units.

HASTYDEPARTURE, I think the "keeping our powder dry" statement came from an ATCO Chair around 10 years ago. If we were evrr to light it then it was over PPP, and I reckon you could count on 3 hands the number of ATCOs who really got involved with the anti-PPP campaign apart from sending the odd letter to their MP. Certainly not many were at the Houses of Parliament canvassing them directly.

I see you have been taking advantage of the AAVA agreement. That was a deal negotiated on your behalf and subsequently past pay rises have included the "selling" of that deal to management. This is what helped you to around a 40% pay rise since PPP.

It certainly is disappointing that only 70% found the time to put a x in the box and go the local post box, but maybe this is an indication that there is a reluctant acceptance that there really was no real option to that presented. Also an acceptance that there is no other career that most of us would rather be employed in in the present down turn.

Just look at your employment conditions and honestly say that "the union" has not done you proud over the years from salary to SRATCOH.

Nothing ever stays the same in life and you don't always get exactly what you want, apparently unless you are a NATS ATCO and think the rest of the industry owes you not only a pretty good salary, job security but also a class leading pension. Well unfortunately the "real world" is closing in on us as the ATSAs at Scottish are sadly finding out now and those at LACC will discover in the not too distant future.

You still have fine conditions of work and will continue to have in the future.

I look forward to the debate in the future.

What exactly has happened to the scottish ATSAs? Have the LACC ATSAs got anything to worry about other than iFACTS (£130 million spend to date) slashing some of their jobs. I think ATSAs have done well to keep their terms and conditions since West Drayton closed, I believe most of them have been grossly overpaid since its AC closure 8 years ago. There is a lot of top of the scale ATSA 2 and 3 in the LACC ops room earning between £35000 and £45000 inc shift pay for doing nothing more than putting strips out. NATS would be wise to use these current economic turbulence to start paying them commensurately for their task, perhaps between £20000 and £25000 per year, inc shift pay. By reducing their salary, and therefore their final pensionable salary, it would also help to reduce the pension burden.
Controversial I know, but I think prudent all things considered.

rumouroid

I think you might have to change your name to hemmarroid after your "comments". You might be looked upon by the ATSAs as a right royal pain in the ass. I dont know exactly what you do for a living, but I for one appreciate the help from a good assistant.
May be you just sit in an office tuned in to the air band radio :E wishing you were pushing tin :ok:

Yahoo!

Yeah I know they would be, I was being generous, but I didn't want to be too mean because some sectors, not many though, still have an ATSA position that deserves a little bit extra, but I don't want to open discussions on sector specific pay, that really is a can of worms.

Vote NO

Sorry, but my office is in the ops room in front of a radar.:=

I also appreciate the help of a good assistant from time to time, but overall they do a lot less than at West Drayton yet still receive the same pay. If they were subjected to the old "time and motion" survey I think they would come out as overpaid.

bidnou
If everybody took a free ride you would have no union,who would you turn to when Barron says "you have no job"

Rumouroid........what a total fckunig arse you really are with comments like that......would be glad to meet you anytime to have your comments explained, please come on up here to Scotland and repeat your comments to the ATSA's that today have been told they may no longer have a job in NPC..!! what can you really see of the real world with your head up your arse???

And I thought I was being controversial, but reasonable as usual of course:ok:

fisbangwallop

Sorry, as my previous post states I didn't know what has happened to Scottish ATSAs today. I do feel terribly guilty now, however, unlike a lot of NATS ATCOs I've worked outside NATS in the "real world" for several large organisations, therefore I feel slightly qualified to make a judgement based on my observations of peoples jobs.
Why is my post any more controversial than those that bash CTC staff? I'm not saying ATSAs are unnecessary workforce like a lot of people say that CTC staff are, I'm merely suggesting that they are somewhat overpaid and I'm only speaking about LACC ATSAs as I have no knowledge of other ops rooms.
For example Police Sergeants and Inspectors pay is similiar to ATSAs as is Nurse Team Manager and Modern Matron and Warrant Officers in the forces, do you think they all should be paid the same?
Until recently NATS employees have never really lived in the "real world".
As a no voter I'm obviously bitter and disappointed with the result today, perhaps that's why I posted such a controversial post? Sorry if any offence has been taken, however I still stand by what I said.

I dont know what i'm more disappointed about. The fact that it is a Yes vote, or the fact that such a large amount of atco's either couldn't be arsed or didn't think it was sufficiently important enough to vote on!! That both saddens and sickens me. This was THE issue. The one issue that everyone has always said would get them out of the door, their pension was sacred and yet such a large percentage didn't vote!!!.:ugh::ugh:
I'm afraid that the way i feel at the moment is so disillusioned with the whole thing. i think i will now join the disinterested ranks.It doesnt seem to make a difference. I dont feel the union any longer represents me and the issues that are important to me. I feel they have been quite aggressive in their targeting of this deal and they have gotten the result they wanted. My only interest in union membership from this point on will be the legal backup provided.
For those that voted yes, congratulations
For my fellow no voters, commiserations , we tried our best.
And for those who couldn't be arsed to vote at all :=:=:=:= shame on you:sad:

Has anyone thought that perhaps some of those who did not vote had decided they didn't know how to vote? 'Undecideds' as the pollsters describe them; that abstaining reflected their positions better than 'yes' or 'no'?

Those would be the same ones who say turn left, correction turn right, correction climb, correction descend :}
If a bunch of ATCO s cant make their mind up on a two choice decision.....heaven help us all :)

So return the papers as "spoiled" then. That is the correct way to show abstention as opposed to just can't be a*sed.

Is it? Nobody has quoted 'spoiled papers' or 'abstentions' in the results here, merely Yes %, No %, Not voted %.

Rumourold ............

Paul Barron commented earlier in the year that he thought "ATCO's are about 20% overpaid"

Using your logic
Would not this be an ideal time to reduce ATCO's salary to what Mr Barron feels is more commensurate rate for the job ?