I think we should make ATCO training have the same status as a degree and have the same financial arrangements for students.

anotherthing, my post was an observation on what seems often to be a blinkerd view taken by NATS on the value of experience gained elsewhere, I'm afraid that it was your post that brought it to mind.

You make one crucial point - loyalty is a two-way thing and not a right that Scooby Don't, or anyone else, can demand. But fewer and fewer employers seem to recognise it these days. We are moving into an era where bean-counter controlled companies with the idea that controllers, or any other skilled and professional group, can be hired and fired as the resource demand requires. Is it any wonder then that some people forget about the two-way thing and just follow the money?

andanotherthing - thank you so much for turning this into a personal attack...

My point is that NATS' argument is "you were disloyal to leave" and "we paid you for your xx years of service". Do they expect people to work for free??? Maybe yes, these days... Leaving on good terms with local management after a very decent return of service and speaking highly of the company whenever the opportunity struck do not seem disloyal to me! Not that it matters to me now, but some of my former colleagues are mightily distressed with the direction NATS is taking. There are other options, as a few EGLL controllers are proving (pack your shades, guys!), and the fear that many NATS controllers had that anything outside was worse is simply not true now. Had there been a 5-year bond, it wouldn't have affected me since I stayed much longer that that, and what is so wrong with broadening your horizons after a good return of service???

Scooby don't

It was not a personal attack - it was a very valid observation. My idea of loyalty, how it is gained and how it is given must be vastly different than yours!

There is absoultely nothing wrong with broadening your horizons - but thats your lookout - not the companies. You want to do that, thats fine - you can't expect any company to take you back when you're done just because you think they should.

NATS is my second career - I left a perfectly good service career because I wanted a change... I gave a hell of a lot more to the Armed Forces by way of big chunks of my life, than anyone in NATS gives away... I did not expect to be taken back into the fold if things did not happen to work out with NATS though!

Spitoon - As I have said in my last 2 posts - I agree that it is NATS loss to say what they did to Scooby (though that does not make them disloyal, just short sighted).

What NATS should have in place is a laid down system whereby people can opt to leave the company for whatever reason (i.e. just for the hell of it) and they will be taken back a set amount of years later
(there's got to be some limit to ensure a fairly high liklehood of revalidation... it's not guaranteed just because someone was valid years before... NATS has more than enough ATCOs kicking round already who for one reason or another cannot re-validate).

They also have to set out laid down Ts and Cs for this e.g. if Jo Bloggs leaves on Pay spine nine which happens to be £45k, then he will come back into the company on a commensurate scale... either pay spine 9 again with the annual pay awards added on, or a lower pay scale which, due to pay rises, now equals what he left on.

These people leave on the whole for their own benefit, often to pick up a barrowfull of cash in the Middle East etc, NOT for the benefit of NATS... they should be given the option of returning, but to set terms and conditions. This set of Ts and Cs will need to include a 'failure to validate' clause to protect the company.

It is the only way to run a company... if ATCOs are too precious to see beyond their own self inflated worth to understand this, then that's their problem (and no Scooby, that's not a personal attack, its a generalisation)!!

Setting out a defined set of guidelines is the sensible way of doing it and it then becomes fair on both parties.

A few ATS providers do allow leaves of absense precisely to allow their staff broader horizons - it's good for both parties. Norway's AVNOR for one does it.

Andanotherthing - I accept that you see loyalty from the services point of view and I respect that. Life in a blue or green suit demands that people can't just leave at any time, such as five minutes before deployment to an area in which bullets fly in uncomfortable directions. In civilian life, things are not so cut and dried. If you've given 8 or 10 years of your life to a company, leaving that company does not necessarily involve disloyalty. You may need to be in a different location for personal reasons or, like the young chap who started this thread, have a dream to chase. If a unit manager gives you his assurance that you're welcome back following such a move, you probably have a right to feel considerable disappointment if that assurance proves to be worthless.

Captainjohno , boy did this thread go off at a tangent.It is an excellent idea to fund your flying career by starting off in the ATC field.I have been an ATC for 15 years now and have worked with countless people doing ATC to fund their flying careers. They end up being excellent airline pilots with a good understanding of both 'sides' of the industry.I wish you all the best of luck!:ok:

Scooby don't

If your gave you an assurance which later was not honoured, then you have every rioght to feel aggrieved - I know I would. Loyalty also means being good to your word!

I think a more structured approach would benefit everyone - it lays down in black and white what people can reasonably expect and conversly what the company will expect in return

thank you 'saywhat', a very encouraging post. It seems that there is a lot of controversey over this issue and obvioulsy some very passionate feelings towards the matter. I just want to clarify that i am not in this just for the money, flying is the only career i have ever wanted to pursue and i would be willing to do anything in my reach to achieve that goal. Joining the air force is not an option, i have already tried and was turned down due to the fact that i do not have 20/20 vision. In my situation seeking an alternative employment in the aviation industry does seem to be the only way i can muster the finances to fund training whilst increasing my knowledge of the aviation industry. As for loyalty, in my experiance i have found that in the eyes of the employer we are just another number of which is expendable. there are plenty of pilots, ATCO's and wanabees out there and i hardly think that my 'passing through' is going to make any differance to anyone except myself. After all aren't we all trying to broaden our horizons and each job we have is a stepping stone to our chosen career.

Captain Johno,

the only thing I can add is that ATCO wages are not going to pay for your ATPL, but they will give you access to the £60k or so loan required to fund it.

In your situation and at your age, if I was determined to become a commercial pilot, I would do the ATCO training and once validated, live in the cheapest place you can tolerate, buy a property to develop and then sell it.

Do that three or four times over 3 years and you should have enough funding to do the ATPL without having any commitments other than a mortgage.
It's a crap time to sell property, but if you go for mid range bungalows or houses in the right places and be realistic about returns, you always make something out of it.

You're going have to be very disciplined but the above is very achievable if you are (I know cos' I've done it & still do), anyway, take advice and good luck to you.

niknak, that's exactly what it is that i intend to do, getting a mortgage is the key element to being able to fund my training. Even if i don't sell i could use the property as collateral for a loan. And despite what ATCO's get paid it's got to be a more worthwile job than the job i am currently in! Lol.It's good to know that there are others out there such as yourself who can understand what it is that i am trying to do, thank you all for your posts, i will keep all of your suggestions in mind.