Im entirely with Gonzo here. It amazes me how many aircraft cross runway red stop-bars. Very few just say 'red bar' and I'll drop them. Yes Withins we are busy, very busy... but it delays a crew by 5 secs at the very most if they check with me. And it certainly doesnt affect the departure gap.
(I also find it funny that I often get more "red bar" calls on GMC than I do on tower...:hmm: )

Basically to any crew reading this... ALWAYS CHECK and never cross a red stop bar to a runway!!!!!!
To sound like a cliche motto; It may be the last time you do it! :=

It is clear that it is absolutely essential to query any reds prior to crossing them and of course, particularly with respect to reds protecting runways. However, to quote chilli monster:
With respect to paragraph c) above, do ATC actually have the discretion to instruct an aircraft to cross reds which protect an active runway when it would appear to be in direct contravention of MATS? Is MATS a legal document such as the ANO which must be complied with?

The first element is that of the legality of MATS. It is not a legal document which must be complied with, that is the ANO. However, deviations from the ANO may actually be required in order to comply with other legal expectations, particularly that of "as low as reasonably practicable". There is adequate guidance from HSE that ALARP overrides legal standards if ALARP is the implied lower operating risk. HSE and CPS would be the prosecuting authority for the type of accident considered.

The second element is the pointer to the "Aerodrome Authority". ATC are subcontractors to the aerodrome operator. There is plenty of case law to indicate that this would be the interpretation. Therefore, ATC MATS 2 must reflect the Aerodrome Manual. There should be nothing in the MATS 2 which is not directly traceable to the Aerodrome Manual, with the exception of turning it into ATC speak.

The airport operator owns the lighting control panel and has design authority over it. The airport operator owns the lights out on the aerodrome, the switchgear and the power supplies etc. Also maintenance similarly. So, the airport writes the procedures for what happens when a stopbar is locked red, ATC just carry it out. A subcontractor may refuse to carry the procedure out if their Safety Management System indicates that the risk is too high for their corporate risk exposure.

If the aerodrome authority has not supplied written a procedure, then ATC management should point this out. There must be an ATC contigency procedure for each item of aerodrome infrastructure which could fail. Of course, the Aerodrome Manual should not be accepted by SRG if this is the case, but under a SMS approval for the airport operator, it could happen.

If there has been a locked red stopbar, and there are no procedures for it and the controller clears the aircraft across it without following the procedures in MATS 2, then the controller has violated the MATS 2 regulations. The controller may then have a case to answer. However, the case would be moderated by the management failures to provide adequate procedures.

As clear as mud?

Happy landings.

IFALPA's standpoint on crossing red stop bars
 

GUYS & GALS, DONT DO IT EVER PERIOD. :ugh:

NO TIME SAVED IS WORTH IT.

And yes I am SHOUTING cos some of us are mutt and jeff.

Sir George Cayley

I remember after landing at Madrid on a local carrier, having come inbound from Bogota, asking the purser if I could speak to the flight crew. I asked them politely if, on departure, they had received a conditional line up clearance and then crossed a red stopbar. They confirmed that they had. They thought that this was a remarkable deduction for a passenger and to remember it after 11 hours.

1. Line up clearances are illegal in Colombia
2. Crossing a red stopbar is illegal in Colombia
3. The tail camera in a 340 at the holding point can reveal a lot to passengers in the cabin.

Still, the approach view from the tail camera also was like closing the door after the horse has bolted - a case of un-stable.

I agree, it should never be done.

Crossing a red runway stopbar for an aircraft unescorted is a complete no-no at LGW. We would supply a leader vehicle for this as a major priority, even to the extent of getting the Duty Manager out doing it (I did a couple of hours of it myself a week or so ago). Taxiway traffic bars MAY be crossed in the circumstances already highlighted i.e. if the GMC person has full view of the situation. Yes, do please keep hammering away with the faults, we need the information.

discountinvestigator,

As ever, a very lucid view, well put.

TheOddOne

Another tack..
 

We don't descend below the decision height so perhaps making the crossing of a red top bar just as serious is a way forward.

Equipment failures aside I still hear Tower Controllers inviting both pilots and drivers to cross reds. (Invariably, off peak / night/ good viz) The LCE that each unit conducts should also incorporate the mesage.

Sir George Cayley

No, you dont really want that... we'd never stop! :rolleyes:

;) :oh:

It seems the rules have changed regarding crossing red stop bars onto active runways...

CAP 493 Supplementary Instruction Air Traffic Standards
CAP 493 SI No. 2009/16 Page 3 of 3
Appendix A
CAP 493 MATS Part 1 Section 2, Chapter 1, Paragraph 3.4
9.3.4 Controllers are not to instruct aircraft or vehicles to cross illuminated red stop-bars used at runway and intermediate taxiway holding positions. The Aerodrome Operator may decide, on the grounds of safety, that inoperable stop-bars and associated taxiways be withdrawn from service and alternative routes used where practicable.
On the occasions when the withdrawal of inoperable stop-bars is not possible and the stop-bars cannot be readily suppressed, under exceptional circumstances, an aircraft may be instructed to cross such an illuminated stop-bar subject to the following minimum conditions.
a) The affected runway or intermediate holding position and the aircraft are visible to the controller. This requirement may be satisfied by the use of SMR/SMGCS as specified in MATS Part 2. When an aerodrome is not SMR/SMGCS equipped, local alternate solutions based on risk assessment and detailed in MATS Part 2 may be employed.
b) The phraseology used is to leave the pilot or driver in no doubt that the crossing instruction only applies to the particular inoperable stop bar. Conditional clearances shall not be used under these circumstances.
c) Additional MATS Part 2 procedures may be required where local risk assessments have identified that further mitigation measures may be necessary.
In all cases particular care should be taken if this contingency procedure is to be used in Low Visibility Operations or at night as the green taxiway centreline

I recall, I think twice in my time at LGW, that all reds were illuminated due to a fault and there was a blanket R/T 'permission' to cross them, right or wrong.

I certainly remember one event which is when I looked this issue up the first time!

The obvious solution in not to use conditional line up clearances. How much time does it actually save anyway.

Gurucube,

I'm not sure if you are Heathrow, but I hope the number of "Reds" you get on GMC is not down to your Lighting Op. Your statement is puzzling!

:ouch:

For what it is worth I think stop bars should be scrapped.

It was a good idea in principle but in practice they seem to be creating more problems than they solve.

The idea, correct me if I am wrong, was to create a back up to the controller instructions by providing a visual prompt to the pilot that the instruction was for his/her aircraft. Any deviation from that was to be queried. However:

• the lights instead of the controller have become the primary means of communicating with the pilot (just what is wrong with, "the lights are stuck confirming clear to line up"
• No one is sure what to do with conditional clearances
• Controllers at busy airports are getting repetitive strain injuries
• They are too workload intensive for ATC
• ANSPS are considering only using them during low visibility

The US did not adopt them I believe because they foresaw all of the above, however now they are developing Runway Safety Warning Lights (RSWL) which do not require controller action and only operate if there is collision risk. They work off the Sensis A-SMGCS and illuminate at the same time as an audio/visual warning is given to ATC. Pilot audio will come soon and they are experimenting with on-ground TCAS alerts.

Seems like amuch better idea to me?

<<For what it is worth I think stop bars should be scrapped. >>

Great idea - would make GMC a doddle for the ATCOs, but a teensy weensy bit busier for the pilots!! Just say "Cleared to the holding point 27R, providing your own separation" for departures, and "Stand xxx, providing your own separation" to the landers and sit back and watch it happen.

A pilot made a similar comment on here some time ago. He went away with the screaming hysterical laughter of Roger Dee, Charlie Park, Ronnie Radar and other notables ringing in his ears!!

Why all the discussion? I agree, use of stop bars other than in LVPs is a 'knee-jerk' by management and creates more problems than it solves, (what are runway guard lights for after all) but IF a pilot is given a clearance implying he cross an illuminated stop-bar, then surely it's normal to query it?

I am not at Heathrow. No, it was not a reference to the LPO. And finally; no, my statement was not all that puzzling! :8

Heathrow Director, what a load of codswallop. I have no idea who Roger D and the others are but stop lights are simply a brighter form of holding point lights. I cannot see how the absence of stop bars makes a pilot's life any more difficult when there plenty of airports in the US busier than Heathrow that do not have them.

Before you taxied to the holding point and waited for line up, now you taxi to a stop bar and wait for line up. The difference is that once you were informed by voice, now you have to see some lights go out before you believe the voice.

The voice and the lights button are activated by the same controller so there is still nothing between you and a controller induced runway mishap except your own situational awareness.

I stand by my statement that stop bars have created more problems than they have solved.

Mr Approach,

Bear in mind that HD's experience is at Heathrow, where we have selectable green centrelines and red stop bars on taxiways at night and in poor vis, and each Ground controller is aided by a Lighting Operator who selects those green lights.

Therefore, all the controller has to say is: 'Follow the greens' rather than: 'Turn left on Alpha, right on Bravo and hold short of Charlie etc etc'......Something we consistently receive very good feedback on from foreign crews (far easier to understand for those of limited English ability), and also our based crews after a long, overnight sector

And I always wondered how it actually helps that I send a car when the stopbar can't be operated. Is it that the car gets hit first if I screwed it up?