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Hold on, guys!
I'm a pilot that flies into EGPK and is therefore regularly 'controlled' by you guys. Can I ask you to please STOP, especially PheasantPlucker and Rab-K! This window into your mind is causing me a considerable amount of UNEASE!! :bored: |
Originally Posted by A2QFI
I hear that today's flights went thru Mildenhall. They should have put them all thru there in the first place.
Serious question: did we get all this profound concern when "extraordinary rendition" flights were fashionable? PS This Post serial (mine; not the thread's) just happens to be my favourite number! |
To PP & rab-k : you should be glad that your views didn't hold sway in WW2 otherwise your national language would be German & you wouldn't be able to express your views on a site like this !
On 7 July 2005, 52 Londoners were murdered & 700 injured - they were innocent civilians too - bombed by 4 people with the same views as those that Israel is fighting. To LeftatRomeoOne - don't worry too much - every organisation has a few that the psychologists missed @ recruitment, even NATS ;-) PS My post's serial probably means I shall be unlucky enough to be confronted by placard waving, tree hugging, bleeding heart liberals as I drive into Prestwick tomorrow ! |
Originally Posted by rab-k
we do give said ordnance safe, orderly and expeditious handling
Because I'm an ATCO does that make me any less entitled to have an opinion on something? Having seen the images on TV and having formed an opinion on a subject independent of and not connected in any way to my job, then to be told that by the way, have you seen the XYZ123, check out the cargo on the FPL and the destination, then of course my already formed opinion will affect how I feel. Only an automaton would say otherwise. But does it affect how I act in my professional capacity? Aside from that momentary sense of unease, absolutely not! The moment it extended beyond that would be the moment I quit. Hardly a likely scenario I can assure you. So L@R1, don't lose any sleep mate. Normal service was resumed immediately and will continue. Off watch - you're an ASS, you warrant no further comment. |
Oh, so you can have an opinion but off watch can't. That speaks volumes....
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Off Watch
you should be glad that your views didn't hold sway in WW2 otherwise your national language would be German & you wouldn't be able to express your views on a site like this ! On 7 July 2005, 52 Londoners were murdered & 700 injured - they were innocent civilians too - bombed by 4 people with the same views as those that Israel is fighting. As for the comment that followed:rolleyes: ...well...you must be greatful that NATS still employed you then. What do they call it 'care in the community'?:rolleyes: LeftatRomeoOne - I fear you've missed the point also. Can I ask you to please STOP, especially PheasantPlucker and Rab-K! This window into your mind is causing me a considerable amount of UNEASE!! If you can't understand now, the reasons that I(we) felt the way we did, then I guess you never will.:bored: |
The US worked to undermine the Falklands op in diplomatic areas, pres cos they didn't want aggro with another S American country despite the Ronnie-Maggie love fest.
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Obviously some very professional ATCOs up North. I can't remember the last time I scanned Field 18 to such depth. ;)
However, with that in mind, it does NOT prevent your average humble ATCO from taking the view that they do not feel comfortable controlling US arms supply flights making pit-stops at UK Civil/USAF/RAF aerodromes with weapons which the IDF have a nasty habit of dropping on unarmed civilians whilst supposedly attempting to take out the 'bad guys'. |
Originally Posted by Number2
Oh, so you can have an opinion but off watch can't. That speaks volumes....
Originally Posted by London Mil
your average military ACTO may not even bat an eyelid. Don't tar everyone with the same brush.
Let me put another hypothetical case for those with a problem with anything I've said - You are in a bar and happen to meet one of the freight dogs hauling these things who, in the course of your conversation, tells you that yes they have some degree of unease with regard to what they have to deliver but that they are a professional paid to do a job and will do said same job to the best of their ability. Would you think them any less professional than his mate who sits in the seat next to him, who proceeds to laugh at the opinion of his colleague then tells you that given what the loads consist of and where they are going he would volunteer to do it for free if asked? Or is it a case of double standards here? |
If my colleagues are admitting to feeling uneasy and being distracted by certain flights, then I suggest they ask to be removed from sector. I'll work them while they wring their hands in the rest room. No problems, no uneasiness. Rab you sounded allright, but pheasant pluckers sounds a bit of a knob. I'm now removing myself from this, ahem, debate, as it's not going to change anything or anyones opinion. Bye.
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AyrshireATCer - ta-ta
London Mil;) ;) ;) Professional?;) Most certainly!:) Scanning Field 18 to such depth??;) ;) Not difficult really;) , considering someone else was ;) sufficiently surprised by the contents to have printed the flight plan off on A4;) highlighted the relevant section and ;) and then left it lying in the ops room for anyone to read;) ;) ;) ;) |
Originally Posted by ayrshireATCer
If my colleagues are admitting to feeling uneasy and being distracted by certain flights, then I suggest they ask to be removed from sector. I'll work them while they wring their hands in the rest room.
You may not change anything, but you're welcome back anytime. |
Ronnie Reagan couldn't see the sense in fighting over "a bunch of rocks" and had to be persuaded as to where the loyalty of the US should lie. Ooops soory thread drift.:= |
On the basis of my hypothetical 'Freight Dog' scenario above, I've taken the liberty of inviting some input from the 'Freight Dog' community:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=237128 Yes, I will probably be in for a 'flaming' but it should hopefully be interesting all the same... |
rab-k, it looks as if your unease has been removed. That is assuming you are not an en-route controller.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5235192.stm Brush nicely cleaned with turps and returned to rightful owner. :) |
Result!
BBC1 lunchtime news reports that weapons cargo flights for Israel will no longer be allowed to use UK civilian airports for staging. Pres Mildenhall, Brize will deputise? |
Guess where most of your airborne intel came from too???? Worked daily blackbird flights out and back to provide y'all with intel...
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Actually we need to stop looking for right and wrong here. It's all a bit wrong. The muslim world hates the Jews and blames them for everything wrong in the muslim world.
Israel and her people would be swept into the sea and cast asunder as refugees if the arabs win. More asylum seekers anyone. Not to mention the revenge that would be inflicted. Now Israel ain't the best of neighbours but they are there all the same and there is no acceptable way for the west for them to go away, as it were. It is not a war as we understand it. The very presence of the "zionist state" in the area is an abomination to virtually all muslims I have ever met. And yet never described as anti-semitic in the media.............however consider : If a catholic Irish terrorist group was lobbing bombs at into Northern Ireland would we seriously declare a cease fire and trust the UN? I suspect the view from the front would be very different indeed. Lebanon has done Hee Haw to stop and disarm the religious fantics of Hezbollah. What's happening may be a "war crime" but then frankly so was Dresden and Nagasaki if we go there. The muslim countries are getting brave, Iran will soon have a bomb. A weak Isreal would be a second (umpteenth) Jewish holocost. As I said, it is allll wrong. |
Skipness One Echo
May I direct you towards the Military Aircrew Forum http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=236307 ? The points you make are all there and the counters. It is all worthy of discussion but, pethaps, adds drift error to this Thread. Just a general point; nobody took up my question on "extraordinary rendition" flights. |
PP
the psychology comment was meant to be taken with a pinch of salt - note the wink smiley @ the end ? ;) rab-k Ass I may be, but I find it depressing that you & one or two others feel uneasy about these flights. Is it because they are going to Israel, because they are carrying munitions through a civil airport or because they are in UK airspace ? What would you suggest ? The USA has been helping Britain & her Allies since April 1917 in various global conflicts. I am deeply saddened that once again, this Government has given in to the vocal minority - how easily we forget our friends ! |
The US were Britains biggest intel provider in this conflict Meanwhiles what about these flights being worked EXCLUSIVELY by Scot/London mil...then the moral judgements(valid) are removed from the civvy ATCO? |
Originally Posted by eastern wiseguy
Meanwhiles what about these flights being worked EXCLUSIVELY by Scot/London mil...then the moral judgements(valid) are removed from the civvy ATCO?
BD |
bd...are you telling me that Scottish Mil can't handle the flight ...hand it off to London mil...who in turn hand it to ...I dunno..Mildenhall....(I accept that the ocean might be a problem ..but it could come over low level and the..........I know ..I'll get me coat....:p )
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Originally Posted by eastern wiseguy
bd...are you telling me that Scottish Mil can't handle the flight ...hand it off to London mil...who in turn hand it to ...I dunno..Mildenhall....
BD |
Depends whether the chap files GAT or OAT. Scot Mil and LATCC Mil could certainly handle most of the flight. Lakenheath would provide the approach service for Mildenhall.
Anyway, if that makes some of you chaps sleep with ease, then so be it. Just remember that the democracy we live in elected the Government. :rolleyes: |
off watch
I am deeply saddened that once again, this Government has given in to the vocal minority Rightly or wrongly, the overwhelming vocal majority of people in the country on both sides of the party political divide want the British government to join the call for an immediate cease fire. This was the world state of play on the 21st July. Government giving in to pressure? http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...r-21-07-06.jpg Much changed since? ------------------------------- Justifiably or not, the Israeli government decided Beirut airport was a legitimate target. If American bombs being sent to Israel to be dropped on Lebanon are allowed to pass through a UK airport, would it be surprising if (again justifiably or not) Hezbollah decided it was a legitimate target? Is it reasonable for the government to subject British civilians to the risk just because our ally has chosen to support Israel's actions in Lebanon? |
FL, answering your last question: no. It is a sorry state of affairs when our Country behaves in such a manner. However, we must be careful in how we remind our government that it is elected to serve.
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WW1 the Americans entered 1917, 3 yrs late maybe influential for the last year
WW2 FDR was favourably disposed to helping the Allies with Lend Lease but had to wait for Pearl Harbour before declaring War. We had to accept Eisenhower as SACEUR and McCarthur in the Far East whilst gifting some UK RAF bases to the US as part payment for lend lease Special Relationship - UK ind nuclear deterent is purchased from US |
Guys,
I think you're missing the obvious here. I am Israeli and as such am very into the news and being updated with them on a daily basis. Before those bomb shipments commenced, the UK government told the US one that it better not be using it's airspace for carrying bombs without telling them, and that even by telling them it won't make it okay. So the Americans just as they always do (I am an American as well), did what they wanted but played it clever. They used UK airspace, but specifically made everybody involved what the flights are carrying so later on when they get to apologize to the UK government it won't have to be about things that were done without thier knowledge and so a diplomatic crisis would occur. They will say, 'we're sorry' but we didn't hide anything from you..... we published it in bold letters. That's my 5 cents.... :) -downwindabeam |
Originally Posted by off watch
I find it depressing that you & one or two others feel uneasy about these flights. Is it because they are going to Israel, because they are carrying munitions through a civil airport or because they are in UK airspace?
Originally Posted by rab-k
- don't feel particularly comfortable about giving a load of ordnance safe, orderly and expeditious handling on its way to perhaps being used to blow some women and kids to bits who just so happened to be in the wrong place, if you can indeed call their own homes the "wrong place", at the wrong time
- Sure, such flights go on all the time and I have no problem with the use of such weapons against 'military' targets. However, when I read/hear about incidents like Qana, I can't help but wonder if the bombs used were on those flights. - Again, I have no problem with legitimate 'military' targets, but soft civilian targets, whatever the excuse, are unacceptable - on both sides! - If the IDF want to use a kind of 'scorched-earth' policy to create a 'buffer zone', cleansed of its resident civilian population amongst which Hezbo' guerrillas could operate, then there ain't a great deal I can do about it. But it doesn't mean that I enjoy, in my own insignificant and indirect way, feeling a part of that process. - Having seen the images on TV and having formed an opinion on a subject independent of and not connected in any way to my job, then to be told that by the way, have you seen the XYZ123, check out the cargo on the FPL and the destination, then of course my already formed opinion will affect how I feel.
Originally Posted by off watch
I am deeply saddened that once again, this Government has given in to the vocal minority - how easily we forget our friends !
PS London Mil - brush - http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/gr...smiley-003.gif |
UK in the ICC dock???
Unlike the US and Israel, the UK has both signed and ratified its membership of the International Criminal Court. Should Israel have breached the 1st Protocol of the Geneva Convention Articles 51, 52 & 57, the UK could face a charge in the ICC of "Aiding and Abetting". In assisting in the supply of weapons from the US to Israel, should these weapons be shown to have been used in breach of those Geneva Convention Articles, the ICC Statute suggests that "mere knowledge that the assistance will assist in the commission of the crimes is required" (to prosecute). Any practical assistance, even of an indirect nature, would likewise result in the same. Thererfore, unlike Israel and the US, the UK could find itself in the dock at the ICC for merely allowing the weapons to transit through UK airfields.:eek: I'm no legal eagle, but it makes you think... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/...st/5236946.stm http://www.genevaconventions.org/ http://www.un.org/icty/Supplement/su...furundzija.htm (Sorry - just opened a huuuuge door for thread drift, but thought some of you may be interested. I wonder how uneasy I'll feel being party to the "Aiding and Abetting" of a........... No! Best not go there!) |
ALMOST worth it to see Blair in the dock.
I wish I was a human rights lawyer. They seem so fair and honest and unbiased and with our countries best interests at heart. Perhaps if was was against the Human Rights Act we could put all the nasty aggresors in the dock. That WOULD teach them! Unless they kill us all first!!!!!!!!!!!!!?! |
Originally Posted by off watch
The USA has been helping Britain & her Allies since April 1917 in various global conflicts. I am deeply saddened that once again, this Government has given in to the vocal minority - how easily we forget our friends !
Blair is not bush's friend, hes just his b!tch. |
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