Willow Arrivals AAAARRRGGH!!!
 

Ok, here's the thing: I must have flown to and from Dublin over a hundred times in the four years that I've been working for Flyer, if not more! My....bug..... is really with the return sector; we get cleared early on by Dublin dct strumble and soon after get transferred to two London frequencies before arriving at Hollow Willy with Director. The whole way between STU and about ten miles before Midhurst the we get given (no joke!) up to a total of ten radar vectors between the two frequencies, often no more than 5 degrees apart each time.

So, I get to STU and it's radar hdg 105dgs; followed five minutes later by 100dgs; followed five minutes later by 105dgs again; change frqcy to be told to return to 100dgs. Mostly it's right, left, left again, right a bit more, and this is EVERY TIME! The time scale between vectors is never quite so uniform and can span from 1 minute! to ten between 'em.

Right, so that I don't sound like a complete ignorant !!!! I know that it is a busy corridor both inbound and outbound for heavy traffic. I also know that the leg between Kenet and STU is a common corridor. However, what I can't fathom is: essentially I'm following the green line on my nav display; why don't you guys/gals just let us fly the prescribed route and save yourselves an awfull lot of calls and let us eat our breakfast in peace?

The only reason that I can think of that might explain it is that you are trying to seperate the blips to make them more readable on your screen, seeing as the route is two way.

Am I right or am I still a !!!! with a hat?

Anger and frustration is borne of ignorance and it would make my day a little easier if I knew what purpose it was serving.

Thankyou for the forthcomming insults in advance.

SS

Why don't you visit LATCC and see what is being done.

You are not being put on headings for fun you know.

Difficult choice: Breakfast in peace or hit another aircraft!

And yes, you are right. You are an ignorant !!!!.

What a pointless thread.

Try flying MAN-DUB or BFS; after 3000ft, you're on radar headings all the way.

I can't believe a professional pilot with any experience is seriously raising this issue.

Bright-Ling is spot on; if more crews bothered to visit ATC, then such comments would become a thing of the past.

As for all those annoying little turns (must be so annoying not being able to get on with your crossword in peace), the only wind an ATCO can control is his/her own (with a few notable exceptions :D ), so please forgive us as we endeavour to keep you inside the airway and away from all those other thoughtless operators who dare to be flying at the same time as yourself, preventing you from following your planned route exactly.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Secret Squirrel...

Well, my "colleagues" have rather forcefully answered, and here's my own 2p's worth.

Yes, you or your box of tricks can probably fly down the track very well, but their are other aeroplanes out there who either have drivers that can't fly as well as you or have autopilot's that ain't quite so clever.

In ATC we are required to ensure separation between you and everybody else, and since we can't rely on everybody else, radar headings are required. It also gives us some measure of control over the rapidly changing dynamic situation in which we NEED to provide 5 miles/1000ft separation.

The reason for all the little heading adjustments? Could be lots of reasons. The wind (as mentioned above), other people not flying headings very well, and a whole host of other things. You're operating in a busy environment, in the UK there is more climbing / descending traffic vs. cruising traffic than anywhere else in EUR. Something else to consider is a/c performance. The "Greenway" is often populated by rather speedy B747s who will run down your 146/RJ very rapidly... consider, 5 degree hdg change for 10 mins, well you do the maths!

I hope this helps. Try to understand however that ATC is being pushed harder than EVER this year. We don't have much in the way of resources at LATCC and operational ATCO's are getting somewhat jaded, while still trying to provide the best service they can. I hope this explains the replies above.

Please come and visit LATCC sometime. The phone number is on the back page of the latest FEEDBACK. I promise you WILL be made very, very welcome and you will learn something.

Rgds BEX

I just cannnot believe that a professional pilot started this thread !!!!!!!

You should be ashamed of yourself !!!!

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Come on guys,

We all know it's cos we can't trust em to fly 102.5dgs. :D :D

SS (I'll be nice and call you Stupid Sod), when you do visit LATCC ,don't whatever you do admit that you were the Ignorant !!!! that started this thread.
The visit may involve a go on the ATC sim- if it does ask them to put a 90kt SW wind in and see how you get on with the headings.

Secret Squirrel, I am truly sorry that my ATC colleagues saw fit to take this attitude with your question. I note only one reasonable answer and that was from outside of the UK - - - GO FIGURE. They are quite quick to jump all over you about visiting an ATC unit but I suspect the last time any of them visited the Flight Deck was to get an upgrade.

:eek:

So Roger, you have never asked an unreasonable question....Is that right? Not even about something that you only have a little knowledge on....Is that right? Oh yes that right, you chaps never make mistakes, unlike the rest of us. Sorry for even suggesting a little patience, good thing you lot are the second best at ATC in the world.

8th Best Cricketers
3rd Best Rugby
20349 Best Humour


Lets See how long that takes........

;)

Traffic....

Was my answer unreasonable? I don't think so. I did try to make the effort to explain. If it came out sounding "holier than thou" I apologise.

Last visit to a flight deck? Yesterday actually.

I'm not excusing my colleagues, 'cos even I thought they were a bit loud, but hey, please try and rise above "my units better than your unit" nonsense. I have a higher opinion of you.

Rgds BEX

Bex,

Wasnt having a go you in particular old chap, more your co-writer Rog, If you look I dont think I entered into the better-than-you contest, I never compete when it comes to work, its all good fun till someone loses an eye.

;)

Well, well, well!

I knew I'd get rapped for this one! Thankyou Traffic,Bexil & Tcas for your moderated responses.

I know that you guys are having a tough time at the moment and that in general you do a sterling job as far as I'm concerned. Perthaps I should have worded my post a little differently; perhaps a more crawly-bumlick approach would have suited some of you a little more and stroked your egos somewhat. Still, as disdained as many of you are about my question and, perchance, the way it was posed, it gives you a measure of the disdain some of us feel at times. I freely admit, and indeed said so in the first post, that anger is borne of ignorance.

What prompted me to ask was that the other day I was given a five degree change of hdg and told to change freq only to be told by the next controller to go back on the same heading I was on twenty seconds earlier. This actually happens a lot on that particular route and I just thought I'd start a thread to ascertain the real reason as it happens to impinge on my my working life.

I shall take up your recommendation to visit LATCC and quite frankly I couldn't give a stuff if you know who I am; In fact I shall tell you that my name is Fred Bowen, a new and inexperienced captain at CFE. You see, most of you are very brave with insults behind your anonymity but I'm sure that most of you are down to earth guys and are not nearly as agressive as you make out.

It was a conversational question stated in what, for me, just illustrated that we (pilots) do not know everything and do not have the bigger picture like you. I knew there must be a logical explanation but I wanted to know exactly what it was because I thought it better to seek reasoning here rather than on the air! I'm sorry if I insinuated that you have nothing better to do; my comment about the breakfast was intended to be a jest but it goes to show that it is difficult (at least for me) to express ironic intention using the written word (unless you are Oscar Wilde).

Those that find it such a surprise that a professional pilot asks such stupid questions should stop to think that sometimes we like to have the obvious spelt out to us, despite what some of you may think, we don't all think we're god's gift to aviation.

But worry not, fellow aviation pro's, I shall just join the vast ranks of really ignorant twats who are afraid to ask silly questions in the future; look see, I feel more like a professional pilot already!

So, thanks anyway for that, those that chose read the post for what it was and give me the answer I was looking for.

Regards SS

[ 27 July 2001: Message edited by: Secret Squirrel ]

[ 27 July 2001: Message edited by: Secret Squirrel ]

Secret,

One of the best posts I have seen in a long time, never apologise for being inexperienced. And dont take what my colleagues say to heart.

Traffic...

SS

Keep posting... It's how folks learn... In the class I teach I tell ALL pilots the only stupid question is the one that you are afraid to ask because for sure everyone but you knows the answer...

You did good to ask.

regards

Is there a reason why pilots that can fly track are not asked to fly a track.?

Most modern jets fly magnetic track up on their HSI and this could solve the guess the winds aloft problem for radar.

This would also keep the pilot flying, scaning, and feeling more in the loop, also it would ruin his breakfast fat intake but improve his waistline and help keep his arteries clean, of course he could also starve to death if he had to buy his own breakfast at airport prices on a uk pilot salery!

scanscanscan

Yes, of course it would be nice if we could instruct a pilot to fly a specific TRACK (for instance, three miles left of the centreline of Alpha two-five) and then treat it as though it was on a radar heading. Sadly, the rules and phraseology have not yet caught up with the technology available. To be sure, some controllers use the technique anyway, to good effect, but, should things go "pear-shaped" they know they will be "hung, drawn and quartered" for NOT ENSURING SEPARATION by an approved method.

Secret Squirrel, I think you'll find that all my collegues are only having a laugh about such things as breakfast, and meant no harm. When you come to LATCC, you will find that although ATC morale is crap, the general watch vibe is a good one, where we will sit and laugh with each other (at each other) when the time permits. I hope then you will see its nothing personal.

My bit for the thread is - sit at the top of descent and try to monitor the heading changes whilst flying the exact route (sorry it wont be into the London TMA). Then try it the next time, and also when its blowing a gale. You should find the variations can be as great as 10degs for only 5000ft. If the a/c overhauling you is 5000ft above/below, you either diverge or converge, either way its not toward the point you want to be at (KENET I think?). When your inbound to LGW and this happens, also look right, and you may just see a GREAT reason for not going that way, even better than an Airprox.

---Avoiding Action, missle 10 o'clock, range 15 miles, locked on, BAIL OUT, BAIL OUT---

SS, first of all dont be put off by the hot heads who shoot first and ask questions later, every company has them, and you SHOULD ask questions on this forum.
Certainly pay us a visit to see the sharp end, but here is a very compressed view of your flight.
Into and out of EIDW thro Vatry you will almost always be on a radar heading due to volume of traffic, probably more than one due to the nature of the turn at STU.
Once you are clear of the in/out traffic you approach STU where we have an semi official traffic flow of eastbounds on the south side, westbounds northside, hence the 105 or thereabouts of STU. As you are inbound to EGKK and relatively slow in your RJ, you will be vectored south of EGLL and EGSS inbounds, resulting in fine tuning of your heading, the wind is also a significant factor as are airspace boundaries and the numerous Danger Areas active south if UG1. As you approach DIKAS the UAR kinks left 5 degrees,another heading change, and the wind is usually subtely different than at STU.
You then enter the BRS sector where you are descending south side against EGFF, EGGD, EGDL, EGTG and EGVN departures, with I am afraid more heading changes. Once you finally get to KENET the TC boys and girls have to fit you into the EGKK flow from the HON direction, with I am sure more heading changes.
If only SRG would approve the use of offsets for Radar separation we would all be much happier.
Your example of heading change just after a frequency change is, i am afraid, poor ATCO technique in the main. Dont forget that Radar is an historical tool and sometimes if we are under pressure we dont know that you have turned, descended, climbed etc until it is too late. Also there are many u/t`s and correcting them on this error is way down the
list for correction in the early stages of training.


Traffic

Great Aussie comedians.......


let me see

appart from your good self, i must say i am struggling.........


Big Brother will get back to you!!!!!!!!

[ 29 July 2001: Message edited by: Big Nose1 ]
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[ 29 July 2001: Message edited by: Big Nose1 ]

[ 29 July 2001: Message edited by: Big Nose1 ]

[ 29 July 2001: Message edited by: Big Nose1 ]

Cheers all. I must say that it does make a difference when you know the whyfores and wherefores of these things.

I apologise for the phraseology and the seemingly flippant tone of my post; I realise now that I should have been more tactful and less brash. I have received many e-mails and have found most of the posts very helpful indeed. Now I can counter my colleagues' disdain with a knowledgeable breakdown of why and what for; hey, who knows I may even get some respect for a change....I'll be lucky!

Thanks again.