Further to fox in sox's posting, here's another small one to consider. Any comments?

Often I have found that just as we are about to level off (say within 200'), when our SOP's dictate that BOTH pilots are monitoring to ensure no level bust, ATC will give us an instruction to change to the next frequency. PNF usually then waits for PF to level off then gets on with the radio call.
Never the less this must up the chance of a level bust whether you are hand flying or on auto with maybe the wrong altsel.
Could possibly be one of things that ATC are not aware of because nobody has brought it to there attention.

Sidney Hawker,

Do you really believe that ATC is waiting for you to be within 200 feet of your asigned level to give you some new instruction?

Grow up mate!

Sidney Hawker,

what is the SOP for setting your altimeter?
It sounds like that needs to be reviewd? from my side you dont change until you are cleard from alt to FL or the other way around that way you set it straightaway. but this is side tracking. Ever tried to apply that SOP in London area, you get guy's like fox in sox (Hy there Fox) trying to give you a climb clearance every thousend feet untill fl 120 (just kidding its FL70)if you apply those SOP's to the letter you'll be over france before you change to the right freq.
GMS: some time i think they (controlers)are either so bored or preping for a test. It looks like they acctualy wait till you start to level off and then give you an other clim for 1000 feet.
Tell me Fox in sox, is this any were near the real thing?

GMS,

I don't think that Sidney Hawker was saying that we deliberately waited until they were 200 from the level, just that he had experienced it. Quite often we will have a good reason for passing the new instruction once we know the aircraft is levelling off or has reached/passed a certain level, for example assuring ourselves that the aircraft now has separation against an aircraft at another level before transfer to the next sector, or has met a Standing Agreement level. I think Sidney's point is that we should be aware of the other guys problem (as of course pilot's should be of ours but more often than not aren't !! :) ) and try and adapt our technique where practicable. Another good reason for everyone in ATC to do fam flights ? ;) Let's remember that we're down here because they're up there and not the other way around. I think 99.9% of us do try and please the customer when we can so the pilot input into how they see the interface working is to be welcomed. Otherwise how can we improve things for them ?

Pointer,

I don't believe that Sidney was referring to changing the subscale setting but rather that both crew should monitor the altitude capture (manual or otherwise). Also ATC don't in my experience play games to let people just about level off and then give another vertical instruction. I think we are pretty busy doing more important things than that (like filling in our staff travel applications !!). But seriously, there can be several reasons. Firstly we can simply forget, some of us being human allegedly. The choice here is then to let you level off, wait a minute, and then clear you to climb/descend once again as though it was part of a great plan, or give you a late but continuous clearance. What would you prefer ? We could also be waiting to get radar separation which might just be occurring as you approach the last separated level. Or you may just be passing the sector boundary, before which the controller can usually not give you any executive instructions until you enter his airspace. Or one of another hundred or so valid reasons which we all get experience of day to day in ATC. If you haven't seen ATC particularly at an Area or Terminal Centre, then the usual invite aired through the PPRuNe Forums applies. Come and see what actually goes on, then you will understand why sometimes things which might seem illogical or unecessary on the flight deck are actually usually part of a much bigger picture. Hope to see you soon ;)



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PPRuNe Radar
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Pointer,

trust me {and so ya should ;-)) } we don't try to make life hard for ya. If ya get a stepped climb that seems pointless then bear in mind what PPrune Radar said. Depending on where we (controllers [and i use the term loosely]) work we have lots of different things to take into account. Not speaking from personal experience now but, i know there are units in the UK that have to work (literally) under the shadow of others. These units have to give you stepped climbs due to traffic in and out of other airfields and also to do with the constraints of controlled airspace. LCA is a prime example where the whole system was designed for low performance aircraft. The newer aircraft, such as yours, out-perform the airspace allowed for them and therefore are pushing the limits of the CTR as it exists now. If in the UK we could poach more airspace for you from the private flying fraternity then maybe we could get somewhere toward alleviating the problem for you. Until that happens please bear with us as we are trying our best with the tools and space available to us.
Spot the difference next time you fly to LHR, where the aim is to give you a Continuous Descent (and therefore low noise) Approach as opposed to LGW where it always seemed to be an 'as low as early as possible approach'.

Fox

Fox,

No need to send words twice so I've deleted your duplicate post :)

For our pilot friends I think Fox means LCY for London City rather than LCA as quoted. But if it's somewhere else you mean Fox, then feel free to jump in and correct me !!

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PPRuNe Radar
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PPRuNe Radar

I don't say i don't understand i just say that this might be somthing to think about, maybe in the future there is a posible 3D clim instruction possible with the newest techn. avail. you never know. But its no big problem. It was just noticed. But maybe you(or fox)can explain the following; a female controler was issuing vectors (near logan int.) every minit or so we were send 20deg left and the next 20deg right and so on for about 7 min. was this just for seperation? she could have given a cours right in the middle and ask to reduce? or is this a technique you use?

Pointer,

Can't comment on how an individual does things meaningfully, and at the possibility of being Politically Incorrect, there is often no logic to a ladies mind (only kidding girls, honest :) !!). Actually for what it's worth I've worked with some very, very slick lady controllers as well as some real old women (who were actually men !!).

A few things I would do if I had to increase the separation between you and the guy ahead. Firstly check the speed differential and whether it can be reasonably increased. If not, then considering the airspace constraints, give you a delaying vector of probably 45o right or left for a couple of minutes before putting you back on track.

But unfortunately not actually being there, it's difficult to say exactly what the plan and factors might have been in this case. I can however say that the instructions would definitely not just be for practice or spite in that airspace. There's usually very little time to think about clever things like that round about LOGAN.

3D or even 4D profiles are certainly being worked on, with the possible advent of Mode S and it's downlinked airborne parameters plus datalink capabilities. More than a couple of years though till anything like that comes along.

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PPRuNe Radar
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[This message has been edited by PPRuNe Radar (edited 17 August 1999).]

PPRuNe Radar, "a couple of years". You're obviously an optimist! Look at how long it's taken, and continues taking, to introduce yesterdays technology to ATC.

Hotel Tango,

I said more than a couple of years and that's using the NERC calender method as well :)

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PPRuNe Radar
ATC Forum Moderator
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Pprune radar,

Next thing you controllers come up with somthing smart to do away with pilots once and for all......
Talk about putting my foot in my ...mmmmmmm!

Pointer,

Now ground controlled aircraft....that is a long long way off. Don't think the self loading cargo would accept it for one thing. Now a pilot and a dog, that they could live with !! :)

10W,

I'll close this thread now due to it's size. If anyone wants to start a non manned cockpit debate, help yourselfs !!

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PPRuNe Radar
ATC Forum Moderator
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