ANSA

If it's that bad a situation say "Avoiding action", and sound really scared:D

Cheers
DTHP

433

Yes, that's my point - we all have tools available to us - physical or tactical. And we use the one we think more appropriate at the time.

It wasn't a dig at all.

Now - I was having a dig at Paris, but that's whole different matter. :O

Anyway - back to the original point of the thread........

There are ATCOs who say "expedite" every day. It is your own opinion on whether that is right or wrong. When a pilot DOES receive that instruction, what should he/she understand by it???

Well, if pilots bear in mind that the Oxford english dictionary says..

..then they can put any feet per minute figure on that they wish - just go up or down a darn sight quicker than you are at present (if possible!).

cheers
VL

Well, I've just come back from a 4 day trip, blasting in and out of LHR numerous times in my 320.
I've read all the responses here, and thank you all for them.

As said by one respondent, the fact that I have asked the question shows that there is room for interpretation or personal opinion on this matter. I guessed this to be the case, as I've seen many different pilots react differently to such a request to 'expedite', in the same A/C, same company, same SOP's. (Our flying manual doesn't cover the matter.) And all of your replies show the same to be true. Perhaps there is an issue to be addressed here ?
However, in our world of driving aeroplanes, even remaining within the bounds of our rigid SOP's, there is more than one way to skin the cat, certainly for certain parts of the operation at least. I guess this is the case for you guys too ?

Perhaps we all need to be aware of this, and keep it in mind when giving / receiving instructions to ' expedite.' One thing is true....in all the times I have been asked to expedite a climb or descent, the controller has never had the need to re - ask us to make it even 'more expeditious'.
To finish, all I can say to you all is that if you give such an intsruction, different pilots will react differently, due to the lack of precise definition etc. I don't think any will be so slow so as to cause you a problem though. ( hopefully )

regards to you all

trytofly

Hi Guys. This is such an interesting thread that I thought I simply must bore you all with my observations!

I remember us not that long ago thrashing out the exact meaning of "expedite" (best RATE of climb in the UK), but that in practice most pilots I have flown with dial the speed back and achieve something approaching best ANGLE of climb as trytofly mentions. In fact, I don't even increase thrust in the majority of occassions.

As a UK pilot I have absolutely no problem with the term "expedite". Controllers in the UK (as I have mentioned before) use heading much more frequently than other units in order to provide separation and expedition of the level change frequently helps both parties. The fact that exact rates are not given does not matter as separation itself is not predicated upon a particular rate as the aircraft tend to be pointed away from each other.

I personally dislike the ROC/ROD type clearances issued by Maastricht, Rhein, Langen etc. When they are issued I have no idea if the aircraft is going to be able to achieve it - there are no tables published and the FMC is no help. I am relying on experience. The 757/767 has a vertical speed (V/S) mode which can be used to fly these clearances, but it offers no speed protection, so the risk of a "low/high speed event" is increased. The problem is further magnified by passing through a jetstream or the tropopause etc.

For me "expedite" is useful as it retains control of the aircraft's performance within the flightdeck yet encourages a quicker solution to a separation problem. (Unlike "be level in 2 minutes" or "speed 290kts, 2000fpm or more")

I don't think that "expedite" needs its definition tightened at all. I like the room for interpretation. If my wife says to me "hurry up and put the shelves up and I'll drive you to the pub" I still have control over how long putting the shelves up takes, but it is clear that doing it more quickly than I am currently will help everyone!

Just my thoughts

G W-H

Ok so lets try and draw some conclusions from this. Many controllers do not use the term expedite due to its lack of definition. Others who do use it expect different things from a pilot depending on the situation, and also the environment. Pilots react differently upon hearing the word, this can also depend on accompanying phraseology (due traffic etc).

In short, the word should not be used as the sole tool in order to achieve separation, but where a quicker climb is nice, in order to free a situation faster where critical separation is not at stake.

To me it seems strange to use a word such as expedite in a non critical situation, it conveys a sense of urgency IMHO which it would appear is not required in many situations in which it is used. One day when you spot a nasty situation late and you really do need an expedite descent, surely you want the word to carry the message to the pilot that the situation is critical...as I mentioned above from the Uberlingen tragedy.

Giles, I like your comment about putting up shelves, but how about if your wife said to you "If you put the shelves up quickly enough i will drive you to the pub"....Surely you would like to know what is and what isnt quick enough? What a bummer if you miss out by 20 seconds and are forced to walk!!

Cheers all :ok:

Giles has said what I was trying to convey- far more eloquently, and from the pilot's perspective. These are the finer points of controlling that would be greatly helped by 'professional days', or workshops, as employed in other professions (teachers, doctors etc). Something sadly lacking in ATC. Technology advances constantly. Shouldn't control techniques? What do we do as professionals to keep up?

Can't even get famil flights anymore.
Very well put. Isn't Giles' post exactly about that? There would be an economic answer ie. either it is cheaper to be held down under the cross/vectored around it, or taken out of econ mode and climbed faster. Would be interesting to see. But if the airlines did, and found one better than the other (on average), you can bet the instruction would be drafted the next day, thus removing the tactical option of 'what's best for the controller at the time'.

G W-H
 

Watch out for those european ROC/ROD instructions, I'm fairly sure the controllers are not type-rated on your aeroplane.
Remember a DC 10 stalling a some years ago in blind obedience?
Try a couple of questions;-
---Where do want me level by?......or similar.
---Where's the traffic?....well if your busting a gut and burning gas it would be nice to know why, wouldn't it.......and it really gets up a controller's nose because he's thinking "It's my job to control the traffic".....and you would be equally right to think "It's MY job to fly the aeroplane". RGDS

Ferris;

Actually there is a professional forum where we talk about these things once a year <G>... It's called Communicating for Safety and is held in the US every year. The 2005 event is going to be in Milwaulkee, Wi. in the first week of May... It is sponsored and put together by NATCA but we invite all the pilot groups to attend and be on panels...

regards

Scott

PS. I normally put something on here every year in ref to it, but also put something out to IFATCA for thier memebership

someone posted that the use of expedite when critical separation is not needed - ie the a/c are on headings that will maintain separation. Surely in a busy environment like the TMA if an aircraf tis put on a heading it might well be off the normal routing - and in temrs of an inbound descending through an outbound (and vice versa), the conflict is resolved quicker the aircraf tput back on own nav quicker and the inbound transferred to approach quicker etc.. thus freeing more time for the next conflict to be resolved. Also it might just mean that a direct routing becomes available as conflicting traffic is out of the way

Okay my 2 cents worth (that's aussie dollar which makes it about 1.2 cents USA or .7p in the UK).

In Oz, we hardly ever say expedite to an acft to make it climb/descend quickly. Usually the phrases used (and encouraged by ATC instructors and check controllers) are;

- Request best rate of climb, due traffic etc
- climb/descend to ....., reach F... by..... due traffic

The latter phrase is regarded as better.

"expedite" is usually used by tower controllers to make acft move quickly on the ground, eg. cross rwy 01, expedite.

This is because expedite just means do it quickly, hasten. As an instructor or check controller, I believe that most pilots would like to be given a more specific instruction and a reason. Hence a requirement and reason should be given.

Of course, when the poo hits the fan, then the phrase'
"For separation, climb now to F....., traffic is ......." might be used.

DP

Hi Folks

I still remain firmly in favour of the use of the word "expedite", but I came across a situation recently where its use had no effect on how we operated the aircraft. It is quite a specific situation, but there wasn't really anything we could do to "expedite", however the frequency was too busy to let the controller know. I thought mentioning it here might be useful.

It occurred in a land far-far away where the temperature is already mid to high 20s (celcius degrees) and the SID cleared level is 4000'. On first contact with the departure controller we were told to expedite to 4000'. We were nearly at max take-off weight, so we were using very little derate for the take-off. At this weight the flap limit speeds are very close to the minimum speeds that can be flown in a given configuration and we are also wary about EGT exceedences and remembering the 5min limit for take-off power.

Ideally we want to accelerate smoothly through the flap retraction whilst reducing our rate of climb (and in this case making a large turn). The problem came in that we were already part way through the retraction when the controller asked us to expedite. Since I like to keep away from speeds which cause warnings, we had no realistic choice but to continue with the retraction at our reduced rate of climb. Since we got to about 3000' before the flaps were up, there is a 250kt limit below 8000' at this airfield and our minimum clean speed was 250kts, we had no tricks left up our sleeve.

I think the main point I am driving at is that the use of "expedite" by departure controllers in hot places with heavy aircraft and low cleared altitudes is probably not going to achieve anything.

Just my opinion (and I know there were a few things we could have done slightly differently with the flap retraction, but would I don't think that the effect would have been noticeable).

All the best

G W-H

SOME Airtrafficers need to learn a little bit about aerodynamics w.r.t flap!

Asking a heavy weight A340 (ex UK/Eur to the Far East) to "expedite" when it still has flap out is pointless!

The subtile difference between Best Angle and Best Rate seems lost on many.

We are forever telling ATC that we cant - and boy do they get shirty!! The toys come right out of the cot........

FYI: The only thing we can do is....lower the nose, accelerate, retract the flap and then start climbing again (at a better rate!)

Ive given up trying explain.....just give me the vectors!

Asking an A340 to expedite climb is always pointless.
That's why we call 'em "Transport Gliders". ;)

In agreement with most, expedite means almost nothing, except in ICAO docs - an expeditious flow.

The phraseology for a max. rate climb is, "Climb as if your life depends on it; 'cos it does" :*

Lon More, here before Pontius was a pilot or Mortus a rigger

My opinion (UK ACC)

Expedite to me means max. continuous power and best angle of climb. I use it once or twice a shift. Like Scott said (paraphrasing), I use it when I think I can avoid using headings e.g. catch-ups. Normally I qualify it e.g. "Descend FL100, Expedite through FL160". Effectively it means do better than you are already!

If I've screwed up, I'll say "Climb/descend IMMEADIATELY" which means TOGA power, control column into beer gut/firewall and pray!

Pilots - we are aware about Mmo, how you slow up in the descent, and your dislike of speedbrakes and we take this into account. With climbs we know (a bit) about flap limiting speeds and your profile, because we see you on the radar every day.

Oh, and I never ask an A342 to expedite anything. 800fpm at FL100, they just get the vectors. Sometimes its useful to let the things level off at lower levels, at least that way they start accelerating.

Expedite for an A340 means that the 3.30ish departure off 27R doesn't hit Windsor Castle, Sometimes I watch those Virgins in amazment on my way home.

OK, my 2p worth.

If we are in imminent danger of hitting someone else, I expect (UK at least) ATC to use the standard phrase "Avoiding Action".

If we are in the realms of preventing the above from happening at some point in the future, I expect to be told to reach / pass a certain level by a defined point in space or time.

If you simply tell me to expedite climb or descent I will work on the assumption that there is no potential for loss of seperation, but that a potential horizontal shortcut (for me or indeed someone else) is pending once the vertical situation is sorted.

CPB

What is nice is to be asked what you can achieve, we can tell you, then you decide whether to let us climb or vector us. Came out of LGW yesterday, offered a shortcut if we could climb quickly, we could, we did !

Interesting....

You think that saying expedite is pointless. <shrug> We know (well most of us) that certain aircraft are challenged in the climb. however, flaps aside, (we aren't going to know when you are playing with them.) telling someone to expedite is usefull IF the pilot community takes it for what it is meant. In other words, if you haven't taken away some lift, then keep it and keep climbing, or don't decide to level it out a bit so that you can get more speed, just keep it where it is at and keep climbing at the rate you are doing or better. If you DON'T do that when asked to expedite, then you AREN't doing as requested. We don't say these things just to hear ourselves talk. We are trying to move the maximum amount of aircraft through the system as we can safely. IF do to the new types of aircraft out there and the new way that crews are being trained don't allow us to use the old tricks that have worked in the past, then we are going to have to change the amount of aircraft we can accomadate. This will in turn keep you on the ground or in the hold longer. We have to ALL work together to make this work. That means for us to work our collective butts off and use all the tools of the trade as well as tricks in the bag. It also means that you as pilots need to be able to practice some airmanship from time to time and not just mess with the knobs and FMS...

Off the soap box and putting on my kevlar and nomex <G>.

regards

Scott

SOME Airtrafficers need to learn a little bit about aerodynamics w.r.t flap!
 

Totally agree petitfromage but since 9/11 it's not exactly been easy to arrange fam trips for airtrafficers in order to understand 'aerodynamics' etc.

I know that most aircrew have no problem allowing ATC to take fam trips with them but unfortunately, all too often, we get knocked back by some 'Bod' in an office who does not understand how important these trips are!!!

OK...

I work in the TMA and I certainly use expedite to help me do my job efficiently without using excessive vectors in small and congested airspace.

Here is what I expect... I LOOK at what the a/c is doing.... I JUDGE the conflict..... if I decide there is enough space, but that an expedite for 4 or 5 thousand feet would make it more comfortable, then I ask the pilot to expedite. I EXPECT a higher climb rate than what he is giving me before the request and I EXPECT him/Her to tell me if they are not able.

It is not a form of separation per se, it is a tool used by skillful controllers who understand A/C performance.

As stated, Many A/C offer a good rate on departure (I know 'good rate' is a moot phrase but in this context it is obvious what the pilot means)

For a EGLL Dover departure, it is not always any use because of the stacks, but on a Lambourne, with such tight restrictions, it can be a godsend. However, being intelligent, I do not always take up the offer if there is too much traffic in the way. In the same way that pilots are intelligent enough to know that if I do not use it it is because I cannot at that time.

They also know not to query why I am not using it because they know I am busy.

It is about COMMON SENSE, a thing that a few of the pedants around here could do to remember.

Stay safe :ok:

ukatco_535,

I agree with your interpretation of expedite, the problem is, if I am not PF (I am Left Seat) then the other person does what they think is correct. Sadly there are many times that they try too hard and really go for it - result, short term increase, run out of energy, level off.

I fly Airbus various, from 320 to 330, the small Bus can be a challenge but if you look at the ROC, go V/S (shock, horror, No !) and increase it by say 50%, it works, it helps ATC, it doesn't degrade the energy, we still have protection, result, everyone is happy.

Now try getting most of our guys to climb in V/S, you will wait a while :ok:

To those who use the term expedite:

When you assign a heading do you say "turn left a little bit" or "turn left a couple of degrees" or do you give a specific heading...? ;)

"go V/S (shock, horror, No !)"

LMAO. Good thing this is an anonymous forum or you might be tarred and feathered by the purists.