Atlanta ATC
 

Just curious as to how often this happens from a mere observer point of view.

I was listening to Atlanta arrivals yesterday afternoon and due to large CB overhead and around the field, all aircraft were in the hold, or diverting to alternates. An aircraft wanted to know if they were gonna attempt approaches into Atlanta. Reason, they had a developing medical emergency on-board and they were unsure as to where they were gonna go. Arrivals advised that they do have an aircraft scouting out a route to the closet available runway. Too see if they could get in.

The Aircraft advised it would keep the arrival controller in the loop and advise further on the medical. After about 2 minutes, the same aircraft asked if the aircraft had made it in, which it did, but returned that it was too gusty and turbulance was a little severe, so the holds continued. The aircraft with the medical said that a doctor on-board had advised they need to get on the ground soon. Could they make it into Atlanta?

The controller turned around and said, well, if you wanna try it you can, but after the last report, you may not want too.

The aircraft said well, we are unsure if we should start the descent from the hold, into Atlanta if we ain't gonna Make it.

The controller said " Not unless you say the magic word?" I gues He was refering to declaring an emergency

The aircraft said "well, stand-by..."

The aircraft came back up and said " Arrivals, If we can make it into Atlanta, we would like to start descent, if not we would like to head over to Knoxville, our alternate."

Arrivals, advised the right turn direct knoxville, descend to FL 130, and gave the altimeter. I am assuming that the controller was sick of messing around any further, with around 20 aircraft in his area, and the fact that the pilot was both indisicisive regarding declaration of an emergency and whether he should divert

2 Questions:

1) Due too the indecisiveness of the captain, it was kinda obvoius that the controller made the decision for the captain. Does this happen frequently when a pilot is indescisive?

2) With respect to large thunderstorms, is it normal for aircraft to "scout" a route for arrivals? I am sure with the increased reliability of wx radar that they would know what is a clear route to the final approach fix, or not. Seems a little risky to "scout" round a largew CB with passangers in back.

1) The Aircraft commander has ultimate responsibility for his aircraft and passengers - the fact that he was this indecisive is pretty poor and shows poor captaincy skills. If I was his training captain I'd be looking to do a few more rides with this guy.

We can't make the decision for him, just advise of the knowledge we have and it's up to him. If he chooses to follow an ATC recommendation then that's up to him. We cannot overtly make a command decision for him on how to operate his aircraft. Our remit as ATC is safe, orderly and expeditious flow of air traffic. If he wants us to fly the aircraft for him too that costs extra ;)

2) If there's an aircraft in the air in a specific location then yes, we'll use it to get information on local conditions - that's all part of the Controller / Pilot relationship. We don't however have an aircraft out there 'looking' for specific routes around weather. This guy would have been out there doing it and we would have been picking his brains.

Hope this helps

I can't speak for the USA but in the UK our radars do not show weather so ATC can be of little help in offering avoiding action. It sometimes comes down to an aircraft which has gone through some weather reporting how bad it was and then following aircraft making decisions based on that information. Of course, weather radar on the aircraft plays a huge part - but it's not always right!

On countless occasions as a Heathrow Radar Controller I have experienced severe weather which some crews would fly through and others wouldn't look at it. The only advice ATC can offer in extreme circumstances are weather reports for possible diversion airfields...... or maybe route a/c to holding areas known to be clear of weather. At no time will UK ATC direct an a/c to an alternate because of bad weather at the destination - it's wholly up to the crews, as it should be.

Not that have ever had cause to correct HD in the past, I should just point out that some radars in the UK do not show weather.

In reality, those that can display wx usually have the wx returns supressed for normal operations but it's really handy to be able to lift the suppression a bit just to see where the heavy stuff is.

Thanks for the responses. I was just more surprised at his lack of decision making than anything. Obviously while in a hold, with severe weather around and being stacked with other aircraft is a big undertaking only to be made more busy with an on-board medical emergency. The aircraft eventually did divert but pretty much at the controllers direction.

As for the weather radar, I do believe that in the US, Doppler radar is overlayed on ATC controllers screen. As viewed on www.atcmonitor.com, you can see the overlay. Not the same thing as what a controller sees, but I do think that they have a wx screen close to the controller.

<<Not that have ever had cause to correct HD in the past, I should just point out that some radars in the UK do not show weather. >>

I thought I said: " in the UK our radars do not show weather "

Much the same difference? The old primary radars show plenty of it but the modern digital stuff doesn't (usually).

Quite a difference I'd say, HD. You say radars in the UK don't show wx, I say that some of them do (if the controller chooses to look at it). Having used both, not having the ability to wind in the wx when there is lumpy stuff about is a real disadvantage. If the controller can look at the wx he or she can offer wx avoidance advice. Your post suggested that this doesn't happen at all in the UK.

Ontariotech,

A80 (Atlanta Approach) radar does have weather display capabilities, they can see level one through six weather (preciptation), as does my present facility FWA. The Enroute Radar facility (Atlanta Center) weather display is lousy and not good enough to vector aircraft through weather.

Since I wasn't there I can't say how bad and to what degree the weather was, but if they were holding for Atlanta it had to be pretty bad.

To correct a misnomer, the pilot did not have to declare an emergency, all he had to do was declare a medical emergency and request to be vectored for the approach (hopefully one that would had kept him out of any severe weather). As someone else stated the captain is responsible for the safety of his passengers and aircraft so the go, no go decision is his. No controller is going to willing vector a pilot through severe weather, but we will do everything within our abilities to assist a pilot with a medical emergency or a declared emergency.

Apparently the weather at Nashville was good so the controller sending the pilot to Nashville was a good decision, and one that maybe the pilot should had made earlier, but he has to weigh his decision on safety first, and the convience of his passengers second. I'm sure that he was in contact with his company and who knows they were telling him to wait and hold.

Mike
NATCA FWA

Mike (FWA)

Actually our radar is excellent <G>, as we have the NEXRAD overlay on our scopes. The reason that you don't vector around weather is that with NEXRAD, the weather presentation that you get is anywhere between 6 and 11 minutes old. In some parts of the US that can mean that you don't show anything, but in the meantime a level 6 thunderstorm has grown and become mature in that clear looking bit of airspace.

As to the other questions about weather ships. Lots of folks think that controllers close off arrivals and approaches. In the US that isn't really true. We keep aircraft flying until you get two pilots to agree that going in the direction they are going is a bad thing. Then we close off those arrival routes or departure routes until someone decides that it is ok again. You use a weather test ship to see if the route is good. We can see what the precip looks like and let someone go out in that area. However, quite often a pilot gets out there and doesn't like the look of the weather and decides that they are going to go somewhere else. That is why we do ONE test ship. It is much easier to deal with one person who is going to go against the flow than a lot of folks. Once a couple of weather test ships say it is fine and don't deviate, we reopen the route.

regards

Scott H. Voigt
NATCA Southwest Region
Safety and Technology Chairman

Put things into a little perspective.

A common airline interview question along with slight variations goes something like this:

Your a brand new Captain and to celebrate you have your father on board for your inagural flight as the skipper. Soon after liftoff you hear that your father has a heart attack and will likely die if he doesn't receive immediate medical attention. The wx (or other suitable problem)at the airport you departed from just went to 1000 RVR and the mins for the approach are 1200 RVR. What do you do?

If you say land anyway you likely won't get the job. The idea being that you not risk all the passengers lives for the well being of one.

Sounds like he was trying to get all available info and make a decision. Simply asking ATC questions or their opinions on routing etc does not in any way cede authority. They along with other aircraft are of immense help in developing a plan to deal with problems.

I understand the pilots reluctance to leave holding. Your basically committed after you leave the hold and start eating up your contingency fuel down low as you configure, especially if you have already held for awhile.

To back up Scott, the wx services received the past few years from centers has improved vastly. Especially so when the volume of traffic is low.

"but if they were holding for Atlanta it had to be pretty bad."

Atlanta holds if there is the slightest inkling of a chance of a raindrop...

At the risk of deviating slightly (no pun intended), could Scott or Mike or someone explain the difference between declaring an "emergency" and a "medical emergency" please. The only other category of emergency I have heard of in the US is a "fuel emergency". Could you tell me if there are any more types I should know about and if a similar situation had occured to me in my UK registered aeroplane and I had used the terms "Pan Pan" or "Mayday" would I have been wrong or just "less correct"?

I am only asking so if this sort of thing happens to me I get it right on the day. Thanks in advance.

G W-H

Giles,

For a declared emergency we roll all the rescue equipment, provide priority (number one, for whatever you need) service, which means that I will move other aircraft out of your way, make you number one for the airport, and do whatever is needed to get you on the ground. Normally rescue equipment is staged around the runway that you intend to land on and they chase you down the runway after you land. Once an aircraft with an emergency lands the airport (or that runway) is closed until they check the runway for any debris, this can take a few minutes or longer depending whether the aircraft was able to clear the runway.

For a medical emergency, depending on the nature of the medical emergency, and your request, I will provide priority service that will enable you to land as soon as possible at an airport that is suitable equiped to handle your medical emergency. The airport rescue department will normally only roll their ambulance or dispatch medical personal to meet your aircraft at the ramp or gate, this is why it is important that we know the nature of the medical emergency.

The basic difference to me as a approach controller or tower controller is that the medical emergency doesn't close the runway or airport, and you normally taxi to a parking ramp or to the terminal. Both in my book are emergencies, one is a problem with the aircraft, the other a problem with a passenger.

Mike
NATCA FWA

I think the comments made earlier regarding a few drops of rain resulting in an arrival Hold at Atlanta a little inaccurate. I am not a controller obviously, and have limited experiance in the matter, but from what I have observed on that website, Even when the weather is marginal, approaches are made with relative safety.

Giles asks a relavent question, Does an aircrew declare a full emergancy when dealing with a medical situation on-board? A full Mayday or Pan Pan?

I'm sure if the approaches could be made safely they would have, a little to a lot of rain from an otherwise benign system is a normal challenge. If however as you say there were thunderstorms in the area there is a distict possibility that the outcome of the approach might be in question. Thunderstorms are not to be taken lightly. They spawn tornadoes, wind shear, microbursts, unexpected crosswinds, wind shifts, hail, contaminated runways, etc. Most airline SOP's that I have come across forbid landing if a thunderstorm is occuring at the airport.

As to your second question from a pilot perspective there are no degrees of an emergency as far as declaring one. You declare an emergency to get priority handling, be it an engine fire or a ill pax. You of course advise ATC as to its nature. What they do as far as sub categorizing between medical and otherwise and their response to each will have to be answered by a controller.

Ontariotech,

The choice is up to the pilot, but I can't recall a pilot declaring an emergency (Mayday or Pan Pan) for a medical emergency. I have had pilots state that they have a medical emergency, and what the nature of the medical emergency was.

Mike
NATCA FWA

Thanks Mike. I knew things were different over there, but wasn't sure quite how different.

Maybe someone should start a thread with a title like "How to declare an emergency and what happens when you do". If we could get responses from ATCOs and pilots in a variety of countries, we might get a nice little reference guide out of it!

For what it is worth, on the subject of emergencies, in the UK:

1. To Declare an Emergency

"The correct way of communicating [an emergency] to ATC is by using the prefix MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY or PAN PAN, PAN PAN, PAN PAN." (quote AIC pink 196)

If you require priority handling for a medical emergency you must use MAYDAY or PAN PAN prefix. (Source AIC pink 199)

There are 2 classes of emergency message

Distress: A condition of being threatened by serious and/or imminent danger and of requiring immediate assistance. USE MAYDAY

Urgency: A condition concerning the safety of an aircraft or other vehicle, or of some person on board or within sight, but which does not require immediate assistance. USE PAN PAN

"Provision of assistance may be delayed if a pilot does not pass clear details of his difficulties and requirements, using the international standard RTF prefix ‘MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY’ or ‘PAN PAN, PAN PAN, PAN PAN’" (quote CAP413 Chapter 8)

2. ATC Emergency Categories

Aircraft Accident/Aircraft Accident Imminent
When an aircraft accident has occurred or is inevitable on, or in the vicinity of the aerodrome. (At some units Aircraft Accident covers both situations).

Aircraft Ground Incident
When an aircraft on the ground is known to have an emergency situation other than an accident which requires the attendance of emergency services.

Full Emergency
When an aircraft is known or is suspected to be in such trouble that there is danger of an accident.

Local Standby
a) When an aircraft is known or suspected to have developed some defect, but one which would not normally involve any serious difficulty in effecting a safe landing;
b) When an aircraft is to be searched following a bomb warning;
c) When an aircraft requires inspection by the aerodrome fire service.

Local Standby (Weather) or Weather Standby
When weather conditions are such as to render a landing or take-off difficult or difficult to observe (e.g. strong crosswind, poor visibility, ice or snow on the runway etc.)

Local Standby (Royal Flights)
When a Royal Flight is landing or taking off.

(Source MATS pt1)

There you go then. I think that ties together nicely some aspects of this thread and the ones entitled "Full emergency call out for minor incident at LHR!", "When to call MAYDAY" and "Medical emergency = PAN?"

Hope this is useful to somebody.

G W-H

Thanks for the respones folks, very interesting topic.

GW,

The guidelines for declaring an emergency, and their meanings are the same on this side of the pond. I doubt that we handle them any differently than you guys do.

The main difference that I've have seen in how emergencies are handled are usually dependant upon the controllers experience, and the pilots experience.

All the aircraft emergencies that I have worked the pilot usually calmly told me that he was declaring an emergency and what the problem was, so I consider myself lucky that I haven't had anything worse.

Mike

Thanks for your reply. It is interesting to hear you say that the pilot told you that he "was declaring an emergency". I have had to declare both MAYDAYs and PANs in the past. Luckily it was in the UK so I knew the correct phraseology. I have been seen radar replays of US aircraft in emergency situations in the UK and in my experience they have more often than not failed to use the accepted prefices.

The point that I think I am driving at (I think) is that I want to know what to say when it happens on your side of the pond (and thanks to your information, I think I have a good idea now), and similarly I hope I have given US operators to the UK some idea of what to do.

I know that in an emergency anything goes, but it is nice to get as much right as possible first time around, to avoid repeating things and thus giving more time for thought. I think that correct phraseology for your location fits into that model. Thanks again for your help.

G W-H

If while over here you say "N12345 is declaring an emergency" followed by the nature of the problem you will receive the full attention of ATC.
Here's to hoping you don't have to.

Warning: Rant

Agreed. 22 years working it on this side of the pond... small towers, medium-sized towers and TRACONs, and the largest TRACONs, and I think I've heard one, perhaps two, maydays and no pans. On the other hand, I've worked an awful lot of emergencies, pilot-declared, company-declared, and controller-declared. My philosophy (which I've imparted to hordes of trainees over the years as well) has always been, if it smells like an emergency, treat it as one. The case in question here simply illustrates that there was a decision to be made once everybody was assuming that it WAS an emergency.

That A80 controller handled the aircraft as though it was an emergency. However, because of the weather, he needed a commitment from the pilot as to what sort of action he wanted to take. At that point, my job as a controller would be to provide you, the driver, with all of the info at my disposal, and then execute a plan which accomplished what you wanted to do. And I believe that's what happened here. The pilot knew everything the controller knew, but the controller did NOT know everything the pilot knew. The crew on the aircraft had info on the nature of the emergency which was simply not available to the controller, nor SHOULD it be. Something like, "Delta 321 has a medical emergency and we need to get on the ground just as quickly as possible" is plenty. The crew also knew what their own limitations were as far as the kind of wx they'd be willing to penetrate. Once the controller shares the info he has with the pilot, the controller has to wait for the pilot's decision to be made known to him, and that's the way it should be. However, in the absence of clear intent from the aircrew, a controller is going to want to avoid executing a plan which involves the penetration of severe wx and burning up the gas reserves. That's why he was looking for the "magic word." He wanted the pilot to tell him that an attempt at the ATL approach is exactly what he wanted to do, even in the face of a possible miss.

I suppose I'm rambling... I guess, for me, this wasn't a question about whether an emergency had been declared, but rather, one of the aircrew's intentions (as in, "Understand you've got an emergency. Say intentions."). In the absence of a commitment one way or the other from the aircrew, the controller went with the more cautious solution.

As for the use of "mayday" and "pan..." excellent words to use in the proper circumstances. They tell me in no uncertain terms that you need something. However, that's not the end of the story. Where I've worked I've had the luxury of being able to act as though an emergency HAD been declared, regardless of whether or not "magic words" were used. I understand that this ability is not universal, and I think that's kind of tragic.

In other words, I'm in agreement with West Coast... "there are no degrees of an emergency as far as declaring one." Either you've got an emergency or you don't. The thing that needs to be worked out is, what do you want to do now and how quickly do you need to do it? My brother controllers are, of course, correct when they speak about the nature of the emergency, rolling equipment, closing runways, etc. But again, that's all part of the nature of the emergency and the aircrew's intent. However, once we get to the part where I know you've got an emergency, you've got your special handling.

Just my two cents...

Dave