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-   -   Plessey Watchman primary radar (https://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/615716-plessey-watchman-primary-radar.html)

Talkdownman 29th Nov 2018 20:25


Originally Posted by Mooncrest (Post 10323665)
when the 424 eventually pegs it ?

You mean, it hasn't?

Anyway, AIUI, w.e.f. 2020 EASA won't be permitting radar vectoring in Class G airspace. All the jets will be getting in using SkyDemon on an iPhone...if they're not already...

HEATHROW DIRECTOR 29th Nov 2018 21:38

Dear Lord.........

chevvron 30th Nov 2018 00:46


Originally Posted by HEATHROW DIRECTOR (Post 10324023)
Dear Lord.........

You called?

vintage ATCO 30th Nov 2018 18:04


Originally Posted by chevvron (Post 10323632)
I believe there was a 10 cm Plessey AR15 at Luton which wouldn't interface with other LATCC radars so it was just switched off and left there.

There was, god bless its valves. I held the first UK validation on an AR15 in 1974. The antenna was on a small tower but we were already over 500ft up so the antenna was angled half a degree down. Fantastic low level coverage. Great radar. We were the second airfield in the country, after Heathrow, to get SSR.

chevvron 28th Dec 2018 09:04


Originally Posted by vintage ATCO (Post 10324755)
There was, god bless its valves. I held the first UK validation on an AR15 in 1974. The antenna was on a small tower but we were already over 500ft up so the antenna was angled half a degree down. Fantastic low level coverage. Great radar. We were the second airfield in the country, after Heathrow, to get SSR.

Plessey installed an 'AR1b' head on Farnborough's tall concrete radar tower after the '74 airshow. This which I believe was the prototype AR15 was no good as it was too high agl and ground reflections tended to bounce up and cancel out high cover above 20,000ft; as we did area radar at the time (including autonomous airway crossings), good high cover was essential and the Marconi S232 wasn't approved for area radar use so we got our AR1 back and were never included in the AR15 replacement programme.
The AR1 soldiered on until it was replaced by a Watchman in 1991 (when they had adjusted the tilt of the aerial sufficiently) on the same tower, but when TAG took over the airfield, this radar tower was on Qinetiq property so the radar was replaced by a (in my opinion) somewhat inferior Raytheon ASR10 wef 23 Nov 2002 when we made the move to the new control tower.
The RAF recovered their Watchman for use as a spare but all the radar consoles were left in situ in the old control tower (the RAF having switched to raster scan consoles and thus having no use for them) and they were demolished with the old control tower in early 2003; what a waste; surely they could have been sold elsewhere even if only for spare parts use.

Mooncrest 28th Dec 2018 10:19

Wasteful indeed, chevron. Like when NATS started replacing the Astrolite headsets with the Jetlite about twenty years ago. No technical advantage as both headsets used identical components. I wonder how many perfectly serviceable and almost new (and expensive) Astrolites ended up in a skip ??

I hope there is space in a museum, or outside one, for a Watchman and S511 head, when the last one finally stops turning.

Mooncrest 31st Dec 2018 13:03


Originally Posted by vintage ATCO (Post 10324755)
There was, god bless its valves. I held the first UK validation on an AR15 in 1974. The antenna was on a small tower but we were already over 500ft up so the antenna was angled half a degree down. Fantastic low level coverage. Great radar. We were the second airfield in the country, after Heathrow, to get SSR.

I'm no radar tech. If I'm reading this correctly, the antenna would usually be installed completely level. I'm surprised a half-degree tilt can make such a difference. Are there any downsides, such as uneven wear on the turning gear or degraded coverage elsewhere ?

chevvron 31st Dec 2018 13:39


Originally Posted by Mooncrest (Post 10348095)
I'm no radar tech. If I'm reading this correctly, the antenna would usually be installed completely level. I'm surprised a half-degree tilt can make such a difference. Are there any downsides, such as uneven wear on the turning gear or degraded coverage elsewhere ?

We had to have a special mounting plate installed for the Watchman at Farnborough; actually 2 were made because the first one had the tilt wrong!

Downwind.Maddl-Land 31st Dec 2018 19:36

Mooncrest: As an ex-radar calibrator I can confirm that surveillance radars are installed and commissioned with various Ae tilt angles to optimise their performance for specific sites and/or roles depending on the unit's Operational Requirement. Agreed, most Watchmans were commissioned with 0 degree tilt but many were +/- 1/2 degree up to 2 degrees either way.

Mooncrest 1st Jan 2019 04:12

Thankyou Downwind. I learn so much on this site.

chevvron 1st Jan 2019 10:45

I think it was determind on the height of the tower on which the radar was mounted; ours was quite high compared to other airfields.

Mooncrest 2nd Jan 2019 10:10

Leeds Bradford is higher still, at about 680 feet. If and when the LBA Watchman is replaced, I wonder if this will have to be accounted for. Perhaps the new Raytheon and Thales machines can overcome aerodrome elevation issues in other ways.

chevvron 2nd Jan 2019 14:15


Originally Posted by Mooncrest (Post 10349528)
Leeds Bradford is higher still, at about 680 feet. If and when the LBA Watchman is replaced, I wonder if this will have to be accounted for. Perhaps the new Raytheon and Thales machines can overcome aerodrome elevation issues in other ways.

I understand what you''re saying but I'm talking about height above airfield level, not amsl.

Mooncrest 2nd Jan 2019 15:26


Originally Posted by chevvron (Post 10349716)
I understand what you''re saying but I'm talking about height above airfield level, not amsl.

My mistake.

ex_matelot 3rd Jan 2019 00:57

Used to have a 'Watchman' at HMS Cambridge, Plymouth - for range safety. I think it was also monitored by London Mil.

Mooncrest 3rd Jan 2019 10:14

The Watchman must be a good machine to have such longevity. The one at LBA is approaching its 30th anniversary and has had the necessary modifications to guard against 4G interference. I wonder if there would be more of them still operational if this mod hadn't been necessary ?

chevvron 3rd Jan 2019 14:42


Originally Posted by ex_matelot (Post 10350140)
Used to have a 'Watchman' at HMS Cambridge, Plymouth - for range safety. I think it was also monitored by London Mil.

'Plymouth Mil' radar still operates I believe using radar heads at Plymouth and Portland to provide LARS and DACS; don't know whether they're still Watchman or its successor though.

NorthSouth 4th Jan 2019 15:15


Originally Posted by chevvron (Post 10350670)
'Plymouth Mil' radar still operates I believe using radar heads at Plymouth and Portland to provide LARS and DACS; don't know whether they're still Watchman or its successor though.

Still Watchman, and will be for the foreseeable since they're not being replaced by Thales STAR PSRs under Project Marshall.

Sallyann1234 6th Jan 2019 19:37

I'm out of place posting here but fascinated to read your memories nonetheless.
Very sad to read the names of once great British companies - Marconi, Plessey, Cossor, Decca - that no longer exist.

WindyMiller1 30th Aug 2019 13:57

I was leading the Watchman engineering team at Cowes when we went through the the processes of selling it to NATS. We offered our standard tower, that was in service around the world, exceeded all the requirements and looked the part. NATS rejected it and insisted on the 'scaffolding look alike' version. We hated it but the customer is always right etc etc.


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