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-   -   Primary radar systems at British airports. (https://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/604482-primary-radar-systems-british-airports.html)

Mooncrest 22nd Jan 2018 20:25


Originally Posted by cossack (Post 10028164)
Its been a while since I've been there but since LBA is pretty much on top of a hill, are the wind farms nearby effectively below the radar's field of view?

The windfarm at Ovenden Moor is the largest and most obvious (I can see it from my home in Yeadon). I don't know its elevation but it can't be far off LBA's elevation of 682ft, if not higher.

Simtech 22nd Jan 2018 22:48


Originally Posted by PDR1 (Post 10028179)
Are you certain about that? From what I remember the Marshall budget wasn't anywhere near enough to replace all the primary radars along with all the other stuff that it had to cover.

PDR

As far as I am aware, yes. The replacement program is scheduled to run until 2021 and involves the supply of 20 PSR and 4 SSR systems.

Nobodys Desk 23rd Jan 2018 06:20

The PSR at Prestwick is an EN4000, as NorthSouth correctly pointed out, a hybrid Watchman but it is being replaced by a Terma Scanter 4002. This has been on site for over a year but hasn't been flight trialed yet.

Mooncrest 23rd Jan 2018 10:27

I noticed on eBay yesterday a couple of radar heads for sale, a Watchman and a Raytheon. Both, apparently, unused. I think I'll pass !

Is there any market for used S-band radars or do they end up in the scrapyard ? I often wonder what happened to the old ACR430 that graced Leeds Bradford for more than twenty years. The Watchman has outlived it by some margin.

chevvron 23rd Jan 2018 11:43


Originally Posted by Mooncrest (Post 10028848)
I noticed on eBay yesterday a couple of radar heads for sale, a Watchman and a Raytheon. Both, apparently, unused. I think I'll pass !

Is there any market for used S-band radars or do they end up in the scrapyard ? I often wonder what happened to the old ACR430 that graced Leeds Bradford for more than twenty years. The Watchman has outlived it by some margin.

Better tell Talkdownman about those radar heads; they're always searching for spare parts for Lasham Radar.
By the way, the '430 is X-band (3cm) not S-band (10cm)
From memory, the 430 head was not dissmilar to the Watchman head, the difference being the 'guts'.
The 430 was a development of the 424/ACR7 which in turn was a development of a shipboard radar; the 424 only had a 'pencil' beam whereas the 430 had a pencil beam and a 'cosecant squared' beam same as the Watchman.
The 430 operated on a pulse generated by a klystron or magnetron whereas the Watchman used a 'Travelling Wave Tube' or 'twit'.
The 430 had no MTI, the Watchman had 'Adaptive MTI'.

Mooncrest 23rd Jan 2018 11:59

There was a Decca 424 at Leeds before the 430. It ended up at Brough.

Would Raytheon and Watchman spares be any good for a 424 ? It used to be Ford Anglia belts that were sought after !

chevvron 23rd Jan 2018 12:42


Originally Posted by Mooncrest (Post 10028965)
There was a Decca 424 at Leeds before the 430. It ended up at Brough.

Would Raytheon and Watchman spares be any good for a 424 ? It used to be Ford Anglia belts that were sought after !

From what TDM tells me, it's valves they're short of; but then none of you lot probably knows what a thermionic valve is.

Mooncrest 23rd Jan 2018 12:51

I do not but I guess it's heat-related. And a valve.

aterpster 23rd Jan 2018 14:07


Originally Posted by chevvron (Post 10029003)
From what TDM tells me, it's valves they're short of; but then none of you lot probably knows what a thermionic valve is.

My TV set used to have about 24 of them.

NorthSouth 23rd Jan 2018 14:30


Originally Posted by Nobodys Desk (Post 10028577)
The PSR at Prestwick is an EN4000, as NorthSouth correctly pointed out, a hybrid Watchman but it is being replaced by a Terma Scanter 4002. This has been on site for over a year but hasn't been flight trialed yet.

Oh so have they now decided that the Scanter will do the full job, without a replacement for the EN4000? I understood there was some doubt about providing the service with a radar that only has a range of 40nm

NorthSouth 23rd Jan 2018 14:33


Originally Posted by PDR1 (Post 10028179)
Are you certain about that? From what I remember the Marshall budget wasn't anywhere near enough to replace all the primary radars along with all the other stuff that it had to cover.

Ha ha that's a good one! NATS sign up to a contract that doesn't cover its costs? I would have thought £1.5 billion would just about cover it. But they're already way behind the contracted schedule and not getting any quicker.

NorthSouth 23rd Jan 2018 14:34


Originally Posted by Mooncrest (Post 10028248)
The windfarm at Ovenden Moor is the largest and most obvious (I can see it from my home in Yeadon). I don't know its elevation but it can't be far off LBA's elevation of 682ft, if not higher.

Ovenden is visible on the LBA Watchman and is not mitigated.

Mooncrest 23rd Jan 2018 14:52


Originally Posted by NorthSouth (Post 10029099)
Ovenden is visible on the LBA Watchman and is not mitigated.

Interesting. Perhaps windfarms aren't an issue round here. However I don't work in ATC so I don't know for certain.

chevvron 23rd Jan 2018 15:45


Originally Posted by Mooncrest (Post 10029010)
I do not but I guess it's heat-related. And a valve.

Valves were what made 'steam' radios work. They were superseded by transistors in the early '60s and they have now been pushed aside by silicon chips.
Y'know those documentaries about the Bombes used to make Enigma decoding work? Did you see those funny shaped glass things like lightbulbs inside the Bombes?
They are valves.

ZOOKER 23rd Jan 2018 17:27

A fascinating discussion indeed, I wonder how much 'Radar Theory' is included in modern APS/ACS courses?

Eric T Cartman 23rd Jan 2018 18:25

@ ZOOKER
Who can forget John Townsend's erudite explanations of tangential fade & associated equations ? ;-)

Talkdownman 23rd Jan 2018 18:39


Originally Posted by Eric T Cartman (Post 10029336)
@ ZOOKER
Who can forget John Townsend's erudite explanations of tangential fade & associated equations ? ;-)

...and his Sine Wave 'soft-shoe-shuffle'...

JT got a lot of radar theory across to a lot of students who wouldn't otherwise have got it! Most memorable and entertaining! I owe JT...

ZOOKER 23rd Jan 2018 19:34

I think many of us do TDM. Always enjoyed his lectures, and using a primary-only fluoride radar was one of the most satisfying aspects of the job.

Mooncrest 23rd Jan 2018 20:03

Is a fluoride radar a green monochrome display, as opposed to an orange one ? They once had those at Blackpool, Stansted and Birmingham (Ferranti ?), as I recall, probably fed by any number of primary radar heads.

Talkdownman 23rd Jan 2018 20:16


Originally Posted by Mooncrest (Post 10029443)
Is a fluoride radar a green monochrome display, as opposed to an orange one ?

Our Decca 424 was orange. We have succumbed to flat screens now. I understand the old 1950s kit has gone to the Plessey museum on the IOW. The fluoride had lost almost all of its persistence towards the end. We were vectoring fast-decaying pin-heads.


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