ICAO Radio Failure Procedures
 

1. Maintain your current level and then descend in the hold.

2. There will probably be an airport specific RFP in the AOI.

That is the IFR procedure. ICAO standard is to maintain last assigned level (or minimum safe altitude if higher) for 7 minutes (20 minutes in a non-radar area) and then as per flight plan. So you will descend as planned. Refer to ICAO Annex 2.

If you filed IFR then there will either be a fix for an IFR procedure or the weather will be so good you can land in VMC as per the VFR radio failure procedure, ie you just maintain VMC and land at the airport (not forgetting to watch for light signals if there is a tower).

...btw, the FAA lost comms procedure is different. In the USA you maintain the altitude ATC assigned or told you to expect for the entire leg you are on (or minimum IFR altitdue if higher). This difference with ICAO may have been a factor in the mid air collision over Brazil.

LookingForAJob,

ICAO Annex 2 para 3.6.5.2.2:
Nobody said anything about descending at the "plog TOD". When I wrote "as planned" it was in the context of the question "does it mean descent is commenced at the normal point in the Flight Plan".

Basically, after 7 minutes (or 20mins non-radar) at the assigned level (or minimum IFR altitude if higher) the crew will revert to the filed levels and descend iaw the flight plan. That has been the basic ICAO procedure since at least the early 90s.

My response was to give the ICAO procedure. You will use the flight planned levels after the specified time (7 or 20mins). I have said nothing whatsoever about following a descent profile that was not in the flight plan.

hic Rodos, hic salta ...

FPL1:
-GCRR hhmm
- N458 F330 KORAL UN871 SONSO/N0456F340 UN871 OSDAM UB28 BARPA UM985 PIMOS UM445 BEGOX UN860 VLC UM985 LUMAS/N0454F320 UM985 EKSID/N0451F310 UM985 NOSTA/N0449F320 M985 GEN
- LIME 03:55 LIMC

FPL2:
- GCRR hhmm
- N0402 F120 TENDA
- GCFV 0020 GCRR

oggers? And because I like to wear my smart pants too, FPL = Filed Flight Plan message.

Maybe if you actually ask a question FD I would provide an answer.

When to start the descent?

Radio fail procedures are a bit irrelevant now. Anything radio fails in the UK, the aircraft ends being escorted by a couple of RAF jets!!!!

Now the difference between being aimed at or just followed could well be hidden in whether or not the A/C with RCF is following the laid-out procedures, innit?

Oggers….put simply….you're wrong.

LookingForAJob is correct.

(TOPD is normally not in the ICAO FPL.)

Lost Comms
 

My concern is the DESCENT component of the lost comms procedure. So just to clarify. If I lost my comms in the cruise lets say FL340. I will continue as per Flight Plan at FL 340 to the destination navaid if there was one and then descend from FL340 to an appropriate altitude at the appropriate time over the navaid and then position to fly an approach.

It seems a bit ridiculous descending in a holding pattern from FL340 to an approach altitude and then positioning for the approach.

I believe that is the case. The point in the RCF procedures is being predictable.

And that's why I do not understand the option "or if in VMC proceed to land at suitable". How is that supposed to work, in class C airspace? Or any.

Also, oggers seems to be singing the same tune. The difference beteween Operator Flight Plan (OFP / PLOG) and ATC Filed Flight Plan (FPL) was a little lost at the beginning of the thread but no longer so. To my understanding there is no TOD in FPL ever, only a change of cruising level for the latter stages is the airspace structure and RADs (Route Availibility Document - Eurocontrol's airspace use guidlines) require so.

"It seems a bit ridiculous descending in a holding pattern from FL340 to an approach altitude and then positioning for the approach."

Why does it seem ridiculous?
ATC are presuming that you will follow the FPL and will base separation on that.

Bring back 'CATCUM' and 'STORCALE'. :ok:

Seriously though, would it not be possible for one of the flight-crew to contact ATC using a mobile telephone?
Is it time the aerodrome/ATC centre watch supervisor's contact number was added to charts and electronic-briefing packages?

It would need to be a recorded line, obviously.

UK AIP ENR 1.1.3.4.2.2.12

Essential information may be relayed by ATC using the ACARS/Data Link. Pilots may endeavour to use alternative methods for communicating with ATC such as HF. The Distress and Diversion Cell (D&D) serving the London FIR/UIR and the Scottish FIR/ UIR may be contacted by phone by aircraft that have approved installations that can access the UK telephone network. The telephone number is: London D&D Tel: 01489-612406

Farrel

I have never said or implied that the crew should descend at any point other than iaw the flight plan and ICAO procedure. If you think I have please quote it, in context. I quoted the basic ICAO procedure, and I got it correct. It seems you have become confused following the thread.

FlightDetent

Okay. Conform to the flight plan levels until the appropriate fix or navaid serving the destination aerodrome, hold at that fix and commence descent at the flight plan ETA.

And, yes, that does mean the crew is stuck with the flight plan levels so they may as well file something that approximates the descent profile.

Its a moot point nowadays, in most parts of the world you will be intercepted long before you reach the approach fix at cruising level.

It's not really that moot.

Firstly, as pointed out. Follow the procedure, and you can be seen to be behaving predictably.
Do something different, and maybe you start to cause greater concerns.
Secondly. What if your planned route is relatively short, or comm fail is quite late? In the time it takes to get a pair of jets to intercept you, you may already be at your destination. If you end up at the appropriate fix, descend as appropriate, and arrange your approach to be close to (as practicable) your planned arrival time, then hopefully all should end well.

(I shall now duck for cover, and don anti-flaming suit)

Thanks for all the posts.

arrow

Think about the application rather than the procedure. In the real world what would really happen? Anything is the answer, and every ATCO across the world will be trained with this in mind.

There are so many ways and means of understanding a problem and knowing what the next move is, watching Mode S to see the level select, heading select etc, squawking 7600, sending messages to company, Sat Phones, or if losing RTF is a feature of failures, watching everything failing (ie Mode S or elements of it all the way to total transponder failure).

Whatever the circumstances, I can imagine a pair of escorts will be soon on the scene and every other track in the vicinity will be vectored elsewhere, it almost doesn't matter what you do in the cockpit, because you'll be the only one in your piece of sky anyway.

SIGNIFICANT THREAD DRIFT SUGGESTED:

What was the reason for a RCF - other than crew's fingertrouble / falling asleep - that you heard / know of? With today's, no: 1990's, technology I wonder.

Maybe time for ATCOs' stories ...

I visited Swanick last year with a group from my airline and one of our hosts asked what we thought about returning to the departure airfield in the event of a radio failure. We commented that we might be going around the hold for a number of hours to get down to a reasonable landing weight.

Interesting comment from tubby.

Many years ago, the subject of RTF failure came up at one of our 'pilot/controller forums'......Held at a local hostelry, over beer and chilli/curry.
When we asked the question....."What would you do if you experienced RTF failure while flying a SID"?
Several pilots from the same operator agreed that they would squawk 7600 and return to the inbound hold.
"If you think I'm going to the Iberian Peninsula, Greece, or The Canaries without a radio, think again", were the reasons given.

I guess the procedure is covering all types of aircrafts (from C152 to 380) in all types of environments (from Mbuji May Congo to JFK)

That's why the procedure still offer the option:
"in IMC or when the pilot of an IFR flight consider that VMC procedure is not appropriate"

So out of JFK, if you fancy green/red lights, flares and all the ****, you are given the choice to return in VMC or to continue.

Out of Mbuji May, same procedure. (Just don't wait too much for flares as they probably don't have some :))

Thank you sir, I'll highlight that for future debates.