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-   -   Class E Airspace in the UK? (https://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/518995-class-e-airspace-uk.html)

Easy Street 12th Jul 2013 21:08

Class E Airspace in the UK?
 
With Single European Rules of the Air rapidly approaching, I've seen a CAA consultation document doing the rounds which asks some pointed questions about the future of ATSOCAS. For me as a military aviator the answer is blindingly obvious - align with France, Germany and the US (to name but 3) by changing all UK Class G airspace above, say, 3000' to Class E (with higher base altitudes around mountainous areas so that the base of Class E is always above MSA and is in radar / RT coverage).

However, for some reason, there appears to be institutional resistance to this airspace class in the UK - as witnessed in the CAA's own link. How is this airspace safely managed all over Europe and the US, but is not suitable in the UK? I imagine that the capacity of our privately-run civil ATC is one reason?

The power of the GA community is bound to be another reason - but Class E does little or nothing to stop them pootling around in VMC with no radio. It does force a requirement for instrument ratings in IMC (which I think is currently true anyway since the end of the IMCR?) and it forces pilots to get an ATC clearance to fly into cloud, which I think is entirely sensible and safe. However the language in this CAA link is so strongly in favour of retention of widespread Class G that I don't think they've left themselves any room for a U-turn!

The thoughts of the UK ATC fraternity on Class E as the majority UK airspace would be welcomed - I guess it would lead to the LARS covering more rigidly-defined areas and opening 24/7, and this would obviously be expensive. However I don't see how we can continue to justify allowing people to fly legally in cloud with no clearance or R/T at altitudes of up to FL195!

(Also, while I'm at it, I'd turn all ATZs with towers into non-radar Class D - the ANO definition of an ATZ practically mirrors the ICAO Class D definition anyway, doesn't it? All MATZs into Class E with a Class D inner core. Class B introduced for CTZs where really tight control of VFR traffic is desired, and more flexibility offered to VFR crossers at the remanining Class D CTZs. None of this would have any practical impact on the freedom of UK pilots to get around in VMC, provided they understood their air law - too many pilots automatically think of CAS as an absolute no-go zone and a re-education programme would be needed. All this would put our current bespoke system closer to a globally-understood legal and regulatory footing. How about it?!)

rodan 13th Jul 2013 10:29

As you say, there would be massive institutional resistance to blanket Class E from all sides, and you've already identified the reason - if you have mandatory ATC for all IFR traffic throughout the entire FIR, 24/7, then you need ATCOs to control it.

Who pays for them? The GA sector isn't interested, they are quite happy as they are in Class G and will point to the complete absence of collisions in IMC in Class G since (probably?) WW2. The airlines via increased route charges? Fat chance. NATS? What's in it for them as a profit-making, private company? The taxpayer via the CAA/military? Not a snowballs chance in the current climate, at least not until there is a problem that needs addressing because the public becomes interested in it - ie. multiple collisions between uncontrolled traffic in IMC.

OhNoCB 13th Jul 2013 10:40


too many pilots automatically think of CAS as an absolute no-go zone and a re-education programme would be needed.
While no CAS (except the obvious) should be seen as a no go area by pilots, it is often a problem caused by the controlling ATS wherein they will deny transits the majority of the time. If pilot A trundles up to Airspace Z and gets denied a transit time after time again, sooner or later he will stop asking or ask a lot less frequently, and will most likely mention to other pilots that it is difficult to get into so they are less likely to try and then they tell people the same.

Jim59 13th Jul 2013 18:58


It does force a requirement for instrument ratings in IMC (which I think is currently true anyway since the end of the IMCR?)
IMCRs are still being issued.

IMCR holders get an IR(R) rating on their EASA licence.

EASA has proposed a new EIR (enroute IR) which will allow access to airways without a full IR. Meeting in Europe last week to discuss - part of comitology process. Vote expected in the autumn.

EASA has proposed a Sailplane Cloud Flying Rating - status same as EIR.

bookworm 13th Jul 2013 20:42


It does force a requirement for instrument ratings in IMC (which I think is currently true anyway since the end of the IMCR?) and it forces pilots to get an ATC clearance to fly into cloud, which I think is entirely sensible and safe.
I'm glad you think it's sensible and safe. But let's look at the real life risk for a moment. Could you point me at the last mid-air collision in the UK that occurred in cloud please?

Easy Street 14th Jul 2013 00:28


Could you point me at the last mid-air collision in the UK that occurred in cloud please?
I'm not approaching this solely from a 'risk' angle. While I believe it would reduce risk, I think it's also important to consider SERA and the alignment of UK procedures with other nations.

Our good IMC mid-air safety record is largely based on the application of airmanship and UK-only ATSOCAS; it's the pilot's choice whether to get a radar service for IFR in class G and thankfully it seems to have worked over the years. I don't think my suggestion would have a significant effect on the usability of any airspace - all that Class E does is force pilots to get a radar service to go IFR; if they were sensible they would have done it anyway. However it would take safety slightly away from the realms of airmanship and spare ATC capacity (which I think are inherently a bit difficult to pin down in a safety case) and into the realm of regulation.

No matter how good the safety record in Class G IFR, the fact is that the UK's approach to it is practically unique and non-compliant with ICAO and SERA. But the modification I suggested would at least preserve our current level of safety, with little or no loss of airspace flexibility, and would bring matters into line with ICAO - which may be of little concern to controllers working their 'patch' but it is certainly important for pilots who would rather not have to learn and apply dozens of differing national procedures. The 2 F-15s that crashed into Ben Macdui in 2001 did so, at least partially, because their American pilots did not understand the nuances of terrain avoidance responsibility under UK ATSOCAS at the time. You can argue that they should have understood but neverthless regulatory alignment is a desirable objective in an environment which has no physical boundaries. SERA is a good thing from this perspective and if we can align to it (and ICAO wherever possible) without losing anything then I think we should.

I take on board all the comments about cost. The trouble is, in good old British fashion, we simply make do with what we have; provision of ATSOCAS is one of the first things to go when ATC capacity becomes stretched and this is far from ideal for a service which underpins the safety of our current operations. With a Class E layer there would be a defined requirement for ATS, and if this was not adequately funded, the beancounters could be held accountable. Accountability has a funny habit of freeing up resource.

bookworm 14th Jul 2013 09:09

That is a constructive answer Easy Street, but there are two aspects of it that I take issue with:


Our good IMC mid-air safety record is largely based on the application of airmanship and UK-only ATSOCAS; it's the pilot's choice whether to get a radar service for IFR in class G and thankfully it seems to have worked over the years.
I don't agree. Collision risk is based on the product of two probabilities:

(A) the probability of an aircraft being on conflicting (i.e. colliding) trajectory with another
x
(B) the probability of the crew not being able to resolve the conflict in time to avoid collision

Generally, pilots vastly overestimate A and underestimate B in perfect VMC.

The human sensory system is not well suited to aircraft collision detection. As a result, the difference between B in VMC and B in IMC, particularly with the help of electronic aids such as TCAS that do not care about flight conditions, is much less than one might naively expect.

As a consequence, collision risk is dominated by A. Which is why for practical purposes all collisions occur in VMC, because the traffic density in VMC tends to be higher than in IMC. In VMC, there is no practical difference between class E airspace and class G airspace at the levels we're discussing.

So what you're doing is encouraging us to spend money and resource on a risk that is theoretical, when we should be spending it on practical measures to avoid collisions in VMC.


No matter how good the safety record in Class G IFR, the fact is that the UK's approach to it is practically unique and non-compliant with ICAO and SERA.
Not so. ICAO and SERA permits IFR in class G, and states like Germany and Switzerland that have previously prohibited it are now trying to work out how to adapt their rules appropriately.

Your comment on ATSOCAS and the "nuances of terrain avoidance responsibility" is a very good one. However, it is not limited to the UK. Here's an example of a UK pilot in France who presumably thought that an instruction from ATC was terrain-safe. Unambiguous responsibility for terrain avoidance is an important issue, and more attention should be given to it generally. But it doesn't require us to make all airspace controlled. Since Ben Macdui, UK ATSOCAS has been revised to make the division of responsibilities very clear, in phraseology as well as regulation.

Jim59 14th Jul 2013 10:07


The 2 F-15s that crashed into Ben Macdui in 2001 did so, at least partially, because their American pilots did not understand the nuances of terrain avoidance responsibility under UK ATSOCAS at the time. You can argue that they should have understood but neverthless regulatory alignment is a desirable objective in an environment which has no physical boundaries.
The military are not operating under ICAO or ANO regulation so this is not a good argument.

Jim59 14th Jul 2013 10:09


The bit where the UK is unusual, if not unique, is that it provides ATC (call it something else if you want, but it amounts to much the same) to IFR flights outside CAS.
C stands for CONTROL. Outside controlled airspace, with the exception of ATZs the service provided is an INFORMATION service.

Easy Street 14th Jul 2013 19:51


Originally Posted by LookingForAJob


Originally Posted by bookworm

Originally Posted by Easy Street
No matter how good the safety record in Class G IFR, the fact is that the UK's approach to it is practically unique and non-compliant with ICAO and SERA.

Not so. ICAO and SERA permits IFR in class G, and states like Germany and Switzerland that have previously prohibited it are now trying to work out how to adapt their rules appropriately.

The bit where the UK is unusual, if not unique, is that it provides ATC (call it something else if you want, but it amounts to much the same) to IFR flights outside CAS.

Thanks LookingForAJob, that was exactly what I was getting at. I know that IFR in Class G is allowed under ICAO and SERA, it's the provision of ATS that is inconsistent (with the rest of the world, if not the letter of the law).


Originally Posted by Jim59
The military are not operating under ICAO or ANO regulation

Since I am a current military pilot I know this very well. What you may not know is this, from MAA Regulatory Policy:


The authority to operate and regulate registered UK military aircraft is vested in the Secretary of State [for Defence]. Notwithstanding the fact that the majority of provisions of the ANO do not apply to military aircraft, the Crown could be liable in common law if it were to operate its aircraft negligently, and cause injury or damage to property. SofS’ instruction to Defence is that where it can rely on exemptions or derogations from either domestic or international law, it is to introduce standards and management arrangements that produce outcomes that are, so far as is reasonably practicable, at least as good as those required by legislation.
In the majority of cases, including provision of ATSOCAS, the military regulations comply with this directive by repeating civil legislation verbatim or by directing compliance with specific sections of the ANO and/or ICAO. Therefore the military has a direct interest in civil regulations (which is a good job, too, because we share airspace and controllers!) and I consider it entirely valid for the military to support regulatory alignment - after all we are sometimes pressed into action across borders with little time for AIP study!


Originally Posted by LookingForAJob
we (the UK, and all other EU member States) have no choice and no opt out unless it is specifically written into the legislation.

I am aware of this point and it was pretty much what prompted me to post. It seems to me that the CAA's approach to SERA has been to do the bare minimum needed to make the UK regulations compliant (probable loss of the quadrantal cruising levels being a good example), whereas an alternative approach could have been to proactively align procedures in the interests of Europe-wide consistency. As the tone of my opening post suggested, I would rather have treated SERA as an opportunity than a threat.

bookworm 14th Jul 2013 21:00

How precisely do you see current UK ATSOCAS as inconsistent with SERA?

Easy Street 14th Jul 2013 22:17


How precisely do you see current UK ATSOCAS as inconsistent with SERA?
Thank you for using the word 'inconsistent' rather than 'non-compliant' because it prompted me to review my previous post and I realised I had made a couple of errors - to be corrected shortly.

I know the CAA defines ATSOCAS as FISs and considers them compliant with SERA for use in Class G. However the services offered under the ATSOCAS banner are inconsistent (to a significant degree) with provision of FIS elsewhere in the EU, not to mention the rest of the world. So how do UK ATSOCAS fit into SERA? If you view SERA as an exercise in compliance, they fit. If you view SERA as an exercise in consistency and removal of national differences, they don't.

chevvron 15th Jul 2013 09:38

As I've said on other threads, I tried to introduce 'compliance with ICAO Doc 4444 para 8.11' at a workshop prior to the introduction of the present UK ATSOCAs but those in authority didn't appear to know this existed.

radar707 15th Jul 2013 13:49

Having worked Class E airspace in the UK I have to say it is awful, a known / unknown environment providing a Radar Control Service to IFR traffic and having to avoid unknown VFR traffic (with every legitimate right to be there), I'd rather have Class D with a higher base for my IFR or Class G with the relevant service I am ABLE to provide at that time.

soaringhigh650 16th Jul 2013 15:50

bookworm,


Could you point me at the last mid-air collision in the UK that occurred in cloud please?
Must there be a mid-air collision in the UK in IMC in order to form the basis for establishing Class E airspace?

There must be reasons in Germany, France, USA, etc. for doing so. Presumably there have been mid-air collisions as well.

This is about adopting international best procedures and practices. It is not limited to mandating radio in IMC, but a number of other things such as defiining which sector provides services in an organized manner outside the terminal area, instead of a mash up of dis-jointed services.

Or do you just sit and wait until there is a mid-air in IMC and then look at the problem again?

eglnyt 16th Jul 2013 17:49


There must be reasons in Germany, France, USA, etc. for doing so. Presumably there have been mid-air collisions as well.
Not necessarily collisions. The UK system has grown about through a complex set of circumstances. Other countries will have equally complex stories but different influences ending in a different result.


This is about adopting international best procedures and practices.
Anybody who has ever been involved in any International working group to develop standards such as ICAO, ISO or ITU will tell you that the one thing theses standards aren't is "best". Inevitably the result is a poor compromise brought about by the conflicting interests of all those involved.

bookworm 16th Jul 2013 21:01


Must there be a mid-air collision in the UK in IMC in order to form the basis for establishing Class E airspace?
No, we could perceive a theoretical risk, ignore 50 years of evidence as to the level of risk,
put in place expensive measures to mitigate the insignificant risk and then look on while safety suffered in other areas because we had wasted resources. But I doubt we'd get a good grade in a modern safety management course for doing so. ;)


There must be reasons in Germany, France, USA, etc. for doing so. Presumably there have been mid-air collisions as well.
Indeed, the idea that you need ATC in IMC but don't need it in VMC is extremely seductive. It assumes the efficacy of see-and-avoid as an effective mechanism of collision avoidance in VMC. And in the 1950s, when the airspace systems in various states were devised, it was probably more easily justified. And it's hard to break those old orthodoxies, isn't it?


This is about adopting international best procedures and practices.
Indeed it is. :-)


Or do you just sit and wait until there is a mid-air in IMC and then look at the problem again?
And how many mid-air collisions in class E in VMC in other states do I watch in the mean time?

Easy Street 16th Jul 2013 21:38


Originally Posted by radar707
Having worked Class E airspace in the UK I have to say it is awful, a known / unknown environment providing a Radar Control Service to IFR traffic and having to avoid unknown VFR traffic (with every legitimate right to be there),

This is a good example of how UK ATC occasionally seems to 'upgrade' controlled airspace and thereby remove the flexibility that should be available in the 'lower' classes of CAS such as D and E. I suspect that similar mis-application of IFR-VFR separation criteria in Class D zones is what makes life so difficult for GA pilots trying to get across some CTZs and sets much of the UK airspace user community against the introduction of CAS. It would be simpler if such zones were defined as Class B - at least it would make the position clear to everyone!

ICAO does not mandate the provision of separation between IFR and VFR traffic in Class E airspace. In Class E one can assume that all 'unknown' contacts must be in VMC, and hence ICAO considers that safety is maintained purely by the passing of traffic information. In contrast, while providing a Deconfliction Service to IFR traffic in Class G (which is what happens in the approach patterns at numerous UK airports), one has to assume that all 'unknown' contacts are in IMC and CAP774 says you will provide (advisory) vectors against them. This is actually a significant escalation in ATC workload against baseline ICAO, as you would not be legally required to provide such vectors even in Class D airspace!

In Class E airspace, ATC is accountable only for IFR-IFR separation, and is required to provide traffic information only as far as is practicable. The legal difference between this situation and the extant ATSOCAS in Class G is the transfer of collision avoidance responsibility from pilots to ATC in the specific case of 2 participating IFR aircraft. If one of the aircraft is non-participating then a collision would (in raw legal terms) be a failure of see-and-avoid in VMC, or negligent failure to obtain IFR clearance by the non-participating aircraft. So despite concerns about resourcing, the practical effect of Class E in legal terms is merely to force ATC to take ultimate responsibility for deconflicting its participating IFR traffic. I don't see that as particularly unreasonable.

If the CAA considered that provision of traffic information (alone) for IFR-VFR conflictions in Classes D and E is sub-optimal in view of the limitations of 'see and avoid', it could apply a national difference to ICAO that says something to the effect 'where practicable, IFR traffic will receive advisory deconfliction vectors against unknown or VFR contacts'. This would have the same legal and practical result as Deconfliction Service in Class G, but the core of the service provision would align with ICAO and be much more readily understood by the international user community.


Originally Posted by radar707
I'd rather have Class D with a higher base for my IFR or Class G with the relevant service I am ABLE to provide at that time.

As indicated above, in Class E you are only mandated to separate your participating IFR traffic. If you become saturated with this task, how exactly would the ability to downgrade the service (which is what I think you like about Class G) help matters? The only benefit I can think of is that it removes responsibility for the ensuing potential collision from ATC, which in turn allows the beancounters to get away with under-resourcing, all the while allowing the buck to stop with the pilot!


Anybody who has ever been involved in any International working group to develop standards such as ICAO, ISO or ITU will tell you that the one thing theses standards aren't is "best".
Yes, but that doesn't mean that they should be ignored. National procedures should build upon the international standards as a common baseline, even where the end result is somewhat divergent. A good example is how the US tweaks the ICAO requirements for VFR clearances in classes C and D, which in a few lines of AIP text brings them to a position where they can implement extensive CAS without significantly impeding VFR operations, whilst providing total clarity for the IFR pilot. Meanwhile, instead of making minor tweaks to ICAO airspace classes to suit national requirements, the UK defines swathes of Class G and then applies quasi-ICAO restrictions or recommendations (useful get-out clause, that) in the AIP. Why have this:

Originally Posted by UK AIP GEN 3 3.5.2
The more aircraft that are known to Approach Control at an aerodrome outside Controlled Airspace, the better will be the service provided and pilots are therefore strongly recommended either:
(a) To avoid flying under IFR within 10 nm radius at less than 3000 ft above an aerodrome having Approach Control; or
(b) if it is necessary to fly under IFR in such an airspace, to contact Approach Control when at least 10 minutes flying time
away and to comply with any instructions they may give.

when you could simply define a 10nm/3000' Class E zone - which would be eminently understandable to all familiar with ICAO, and would be complied with even by those foreign pilots who had not read the AIP from cover to cover :=!

Before someone brings up ICAO's statement that Class E is not to be used for aerodrome control zones - I struggle with the logic that moves from that position and then builds a control zone in Class G by applying quasi-Class D rules in national legislation (yes, it sounds ridiculous, but that is how we get to the ATZ, isn't it?). How would defining ATZs as Class D airspace actually change daily operations at simple VFR airfields? I am willing to be educated!

soaringhigh650 17th Jul 2013 10:18


put in place expensive measures to mitigate the insignificant risk and then look on while safety suffered in other areas because we had wasted resources.
So you're out to advocate that the UK system is better than other countries with Class E?

Then the UK contradicts itself by having a very poor low level Class A system of airways anyway. What's the point of boxing traffic together and then working to keep them apart?

Now let's look at the charges:
1. The UK has no Class E and sits in the top two for route charges in Europe, if not the world.
2. France and Germany has Class E and is lower down that list.
3. The US has Class E moves much more air traffic at less cost than all countries in western Europe.

What would you have to say about this?


And it's hard to break those old orthodoxies, isn't it?
You do have a point about focusing controlling resources where there are know areas of high traffic density instead of meteorological conditions.

But I'd imagine SERA to tell all units to provide consistent level of services across Europe - in other words telling providers, regulators, airports, and airliners to accept withdrawal of Class E and continue flying IFR in Class G, it would be hard to sell this point.

Maybe much easier the other way around - introducing Class E or similar in the UK instead.

eglnyt 17th Jul 2013 11:45


So you're out to advocate that the UK system is better than other countries with Class E?
Personally my only claim is that it works for us. Class E might also work for us too but there is a risk that it won't and sometimes it's better the devil you know.


The UK has no Class E and sits in the top two for route charges in Europe, if not the world.
The old causation must imply correlation argument. There are many reasons why UK route charges are higher than others but not using Class E is way down the list if it is there at all.

10W 17th Jul 2013 18:13


1. The UK has no Class E ........

What would you have to say about this?
I'd say you were wrong about that. ;)

Widger 18th Jul 2013 12:45

This is all very good debate....Now why don't you all use your time to respond to the consultation!

soaringhigh650 18th Jul 2013 12:57


I'd say you were wrong about that.
Ok ok I know there is a little bit of Class E in Belfast....
But you know what I mean. ;)


Now why don't you all use your time to respond to the consultation!
But THIS consultation doesn't seek response on ATSOCAS / Class E.


this consultation does not seek comment on anticipated SERA developments (see Section 7), in particular SERA Part C

Easy Street 18th Jul 2013 21:01


this consultation does not seek comment on anticipated SERA developments (see Section 7), in particular SERA Part C
Yes, the line is "we will keep things as they are and defer any review until challenged". The feeling in my organisation is that such a challenge is bound to come at some point, so we might as well start thinking about constructive proposals for change now!

Mad As A Mad Thing 20th Jul 2013 20:10

As an air traffic controller who has for many years provided a radar control service in class E airspace I can safely say that it is the most awful class of airspace I have ever encountered.

IFR flights are I'm sure blissfully unaware that whilst they are receiving a radar control service, they are not in a known traffic environment.

I can only pass traffic information on known traffic, or unknown traffic that I can actually see on radar. Do you have any idea how poorly many slow moving contacts such as microlights, gliders, and non metallic light aircraft show up on radar? Especially if they are not squawking as is common for this type of aircraft.

IFR aircraft can be legitimately flying at anything up to 250 knots. If youre flying at 90 kts What chance does an average jet airliner have of seeing a tiny aircraft at a potential closing speed of over 5.5 miles per minute? At what range could you even reasonably expect the crew of such an aircraft to even see the conflicting traffic?

Conversely, if the IFR aircraft is rapidly approaching a VFR aircraft in the quadrant between 4 o'clock and 8 o'clock, what is the realistic chance of the VFR aircraft actually sighting the traffic in time to properly assess the relative flight paths and take avoiding action?

These are not far fetched, "what if" conjecture. These are borne out from real world experience and a long struggle to have a well used piece of class E airspace reclassified as class D, which was only forthcoming after a nasty airprox.

I find it astonishing that anyone with the intelligence to fly an aircraft of whatever variety could seriously advocate the increased use of class E airspace. It puts you at risk, and it puts Joe Public in the air and on the ground at risk.

It's not about preventing VFR flights from entering the airspace, it's just about knowing they are there and being able to avoid them accordingly.

Easy Street 20th Jul 2013 21:33

Mad as a Mad Thing

I am not suggesting that Class E is the right solution for the kind of areas you describe. As you say, these should be Class D (or stricter), and ICAO agrees with you. My point was that we should consider converting some of the current expanse of Class G into Class E.

All of the issues you describe apply in UK Class G airspace when IFR traffic is receiving a deconfliction service, which is daily business at any military airfield with a MATZ, and around a number of civil IFR airports such as Exeter and Inverness. And in Class G airspace,VFR traffic can legitimately be 'clear of cloud, in sight of surface' with visibility sufficiently poor that high-speed IFR traffic has absolutely no hope of seeing it. At least in Class E you can assume that the unknown VFR traffic is complying with a more stringent set of weather parameters.

I agree with you that Class E is not a known traffic environment. It is not meant to be a sanitised area in which the controller rules the roost, which I know is an odd concept to some UK ATCers ;). The reason why I think Class E would be a better way of defining some of our current Class G airspace is that it provides an internationally-understood description of separation standards, service provision, pilot and controller responsibilities, etc - which at the moment are defined on a UK-specific basis through application of FIS in Class G.

I would argue that the majority of UK Class G airspace above 3000' or so is already operated along Class E lines, with the overwhelming majority of enroute IFR traffic getting a service of some description, most likely a deconfliction service if IMC, and the majority of VFR traffic going about its business unfettered by ATC. So why not call a spade a spade? As I've said before, it's not about safety, it's about using the international language of ICAO to describe what's going on, rather than the bespoke language of the CAA.

Another_CFI 20th Jul 2013 21:49

Why don't we simply use three classes of airspace:-

Class A - Only IFR traffic permitted (At the moment SVFR is permitted but this will disappear next year)

Class C - IFR vs IFR, traffic separated. IFR vs VFR, traffic separated. VFR vs VFR, traffic information provided.

Class G - Your on your own.

soaringhigh650 21st Jul 2013 10:03

Forget Class A.

It's used where ANSPs are incapable of coping with the VFR and IFR traffic mix.

Class A merely serves as an easy 'get-out' clause to help them address the issue by banning traffic from airspace (predominantly GA that flies VFR).

Mad As A Mad Thing 21st Jul 2013 19:15

ANSPs incapable of mixing VFR with IFR?

I take it you are also campaigning for the right for pedestrians to be allowed to run across motorways on their own look out?

UpperATC 21st Jul 2013 21:54

Mad As Mad Thing
Just a modest personal view... If we forget class A, there are still B, C, and D - where an "invisible hand" is helping those "pedestrians to run across motorways" and not always "on their own look out"...

By the way, I agree that class E can be difficult... But the rules are well known to the "airmen" operating in it.

Cobalt 21st Jul 2013 22:51

From a IFR flying pilot's point of view, Class E is probably also awful, compared to ATSOCAS with Traffic / Deconfliction service.

Why?
  • It does not offer any real additional protection [IFR/IFR separation is nice to have, but only covers a small fraction of traffic]
  • But now I have to file flight plans, deal with IFPS etc. just to go IMC. Currently I just ask xxx Radar if there is any traffic to affect and climb on top...
The only advantage would be that I can "stay in the system" in areas where there are currently no [Class A] airways or the current Class A base is higher than I want to fly on the day. And in practice the latter, while requiring a bit of extra negotiation with ATC, is no big deal.

babotika 22nd Jul 2013 12:41

Is there a problem with filing a flight plan? Some countries require it for all flights travelling further than 25nm from point of departure. If the system to file them is simple and efficient I wouldn't be too bothered - I did it for the better part of 5 years while flying in Canada.

The difference between having class E and class G around places like Exeter, Farnborough, Inverness, Manston, Norwich, Oxford, Southend, etc. would, to a pilot not "brought up" in UK airspace, mean receiving a service that is clear and familiar. Everyone who has a pilot's licence knows what separation is and isn't provided in class E whereas only people who have spent some time flying in UK class G airspace with an expert beside them will begin to fathom how it might just about work out to more or less the same thing. It took me a very long time to fully comprehend receiving a clearance whilst being uncontrolled, and requiring another clearance to continue once airborne. All a bit 1950s really.

With regional airports, outside controlled airspace, becoming busier and attracting more traffic, especially biz jets, realigning the UK's system with a well known international standard with little practical change can't be a bad thing? The class E airspace could even have operating hours to get around requiring 24/7 ATC coverage... Would still be clearer than the current mess.

Nimmer 22nd Jul 2013 18:04

With regional airports outside cas getting busier and busier, the only way forward is class D CTR and CTA around said busy airport to protect those planes paying for the ATC service and carrying passengers.

There is going to be an almighty clanger at a certain airport in the south east, if changes are not made!!!! Probably involve a glider!!!

Easy Street 22nd Jul 2013 20:53


Originally Posted by Cobalt
Currently I just ask xxx Radar if there is any traffic to affect and climb on top...

Equivalent procedure in Class E airspace, as practised thousands of times daily in Europe and the US:

Cobalt: "xxx Radar, G-XXXX, position / altitude, request IFR pickup for climb to VMC on top".
ATC: "G-XXXX, xxx Radar, squawk xxxx"
Cobalt: "Squawk xxxx, G-XXXX"
ATC: "G-XXXX, identified, IFR at minute xx, climb FL190, own navigation, report VMC on top".
Cobalt: "Climb FL190, own navigation, wilco, G-XXXX".

Cobalt: "G-XXXX, passing FL80, VMC on top, cancel IFR".
ATC: "G-XXXX, IFR cancelled at minute xx, report changing enroute."
Cobalt: "G-XXXX Squawking 7000, enroute" (or request VFR flight following*).

Note: "Radar control" does not need to be stated. The moment the controller states "IFR at....", the contract is set - you are now IFR traffic in controlled airspace and by implication ATC instructions are mandatory. Similarly, at the moment of "IFR cancelled at..." you are now VFR traffic in Class E and can do as you please.

No paperwork necessary. Simple. Standard.

* - subject to ATC capacity. But then, that is no different to the position with ATSOCAS!

Cobalt 23rd Jul 2013 07:25

Exactly.

Class "G": blah blah. Can, if not too risk averse, be done without ATC

Class "E": blah blah blah blaah. Blah blah blah blah blah. Cleared blah blah blah. Clearance not assured, in fact often denied for reasons other than separation, and subject to conditions, such as MRVA in Germany

... I rest my case ...

Easy Street 8th Jul 2014 21:06

Reviving my old thread and making a very long post - a double crime - but it seems the appropriate place to highlight that the CAA looks on track to resolve much of the inconsistency surrounding service provision in UK Class E that was the subject of much of the discussion above. The Class F Replacement consultation response contains the statement that

Assessment of UK regulatory material has highlighted inconsistencies in the manner in which Class E service provision requirements are presented in the UK AIP. These are in the process of being corrected in order to provide the necessary consistency
Allied to the recent CAP774 amendments, I would almost hazard the statement that the CAA is moving in a sensible direction! The long text that follows is from the same link and indicates how the new Class E+TMZ airspace is likely to be handled. To my mind, such airspace would also be quite suitable for replacing MATZs to give a bit more protection to military traffic on IMC departures / recoveries without overly restricting civil aviation - how about it, CAA / MAA ?


The need for Class E+TMZ CONOPS

32. ICAO Annex 11 Chapter 2 states that IFR and VFR flights are permitted in Class E; IFR flights are provided with air traffic control service and are separated from other IFR flights. All flights receive traffic information as far as is practical. In service provision terms, the change from Class F to Class E will guarantee the provision of ‘air traffic control service’ to IFR traffic. With this comes greater clarity on services to IFR traffic, and a greater consistency of service than could be the case in Class G.

33. With regards to service provision to VFR traffic, stakeholders were invited to comment on current UK service provision arrangements within Class E – specifically the merits (or otherwise) of providing Air Traffic Control Service to communicating flights, and whether or not such provision is to be limited to the designated airspace controlling authority. Limited feedback was received, but nevertheless this informed the post-consultation development of the CONOPS.

34. The draft CONOPS can be summarised as follows:
a. Class E airspace is controlled airspace in which IFR and VFR flights are permitted, but only IFR flights are subject to ATC clearance.
b. VFR pilots in Class E airspace must be aware of the Class E airspace VMC and the need for separation based on the ‘see and avoid’ principle.
c. IFR pilots in Class E airspace need to be aware that despite being in receipt of an ATC clearance, they may be required to manoeuvre in order to comply with Rules of the Air Regulations 2007 Rule 8, and shall advise ATC whenever this is necessary.
d. ATCOs need to understand that pilots of IFR flights may need to vary from their clearance in order to comply with Rules of the Air.
e. VFR aircraft within Class E airspace that is also notified as a TMZ shall carry and operate a Mode S SSR transponder.
f. VFR aircraft operating without a functioning Mode S SSR transponder shall obtain approval to enter the airspace from the notified airspace controlling authority. Such aircraft are required to be either in radio contact with the
controlling authority (but would not require a clearance to cross), or to operate in accordance with agreed procedures. Appropriate arrangements for non-radio access by aircraft without an appropriate or functioning transponder may be developed at local level. However, CAA will develop proposed standardised approvals for consideration by airspace controlling authorities. CAA will also develop guidance and RT phraseology for controllers in tactically applying such approvals.
g. All IFR flights shall be subject to an ATC clearance and require continuous twoway communications.
h. VFR flights do not require ATC clearance and, subject to compliance with the notified TMZ requirements, do not require two-way communications.
i. VFR flights not complying with the notified TMZ SSR requirements require approval to enter the airspace.
j. ATS provision in Class E airspace is determined by the flight rules that the aircraft is operating under.
k. An Air Traffic Control Service (Radar Control Service where surveillance is utilised) shall be provided to IFR aircraft.
l. ATC shall separate IFR aircraft from other IFR aircraft.
m. IFR aircraft shall be provided with traffic information, as far as is practical, on VFR aircraft. The controller shall update the traffic information if it continues to constitute a definite hazard, or if requested by the pilot.
n. IFR flights shall be provided with avoiding action when requested by the pilot. If the pilot reports that he has the unknown aircraft in sight further controller action may then be limited to passing traffic information. Provision of collision avoidance advice to IFR flights is considered to be addressed through extant ‘duty of care’
and does not need to be explicitly prescribed with regard to Class E airspace.
o. VFR flights are not separated.
p. VFR flights that request an ATS shall be provided with traffic information as far as practical. This shall be achieved through the provision of a UK Flight Information Service as requested by the pilot, subject to ATS unit capability to provide the requested service.
q. IFR flights transitioning from Class G to Class E airspace and vice-versa will be advised of ATS changes as per normal ATC procedures for entering and leaving controlled airspace.
r. VFR flights in receipt of an ATS and identified using surveillance systems transitioning from Class G to Class E airspace will be advised that they are entering Class E airspace and to maintain VMC.
s. VFR flights in receipt of an ATS and identified using surveillance systems transitioning from Class E to Class G airspace will be advised that they are leaving Class E airspace.
t. VFR Flights that have not been identified using surveillance systems may be instructed to report entering/leaving Class E airspace. Established reporting points and geographical points may also be employed as necessary.
u. IFR and VFR flights transitioning from Class A/C/D airspace into Class E airspace shall be advised by ATC that they are entering Class E airspace.
v. IFR flights transitioning from Class E airspace into Class A/C/D airspace shall be advised of the change in airspace classification.
w. VFR flights in receipt of an ATS in Class E airspace and transitioning into Class C-D airspace must request a clearance, and subject to such a clearance, they will be advised of ATS changes as per current procedures.
x. If a pilot of a VFR aircraft reports that they are unable to maintain VMC and are able to continue flight under IFR, ATC shall provide Radar Control (if in contact with a unit authorised to provide such service) and separate aircraft as soon as practical. Reduced vertical separation may be applied as necessary until standard separation is able to be applied. Essential traffic information shall be provided.
y. ATC units may need to develop proposals for CAA approval to provide SSR only services, as currently provided in Class F airspace, for its direct replacement as Class E.


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