Privately funded ATC training...
 

I've successfully reached 1st interview stage in NATS application. Lucky enough to be able to consider the option, ie: no kids/student loan/mortgage (YET!), I am looking into privately funded ATC training ex: resource group/ global-ats.


2 questions:

• Can anyone offer their personal experiences of non-NATS training?
• How difficult is it to find validation training going the non-NATS way?
  

FYI, main reasons for straying from NATS route: my closest airports are non-NATS & non-radar. :ugh:So, if NATS I put me on radar training, I would require further ADI & APP ratings to return home. (Correct me if i'm wrong?) Although I could handle some years of up-rooting (during NATS training) I would like to return to my current county in the future.


Thanks in advance for any advice :O

Firstly, its likely right now that NATS will stream you Basic>ADI>APP for reasons that I wont go into here.

Of course they may do Basic>ADI and then send you to a London tower.

As you have said you have no kids or real comittments then I surely moving for a decent job isnt so bad?

The difference is NATS: Get paid to train and have the guarantee of a job when you pass. Or go private:: Cost for ADI/APP rating is about £45k I think, and then you have no guarantee of a job.

You would likely have to maybe do an ATSA role before being accepted as a Student ATCO. While it might seem harsh an unvalidated ATCO license isnt worth very much

wannabegirl,
stick with NATS if you can, unless you have unavoidable personal circumstances not to leave your local environment.

Sorry, but why are NATS likely to stream ADI? Surely with the oversupply of tower controllers (due EGBB) and soon to be an undersupply in NERL (VR) then new starters are less likely to he streamed aerodrome. Or am I missing something?

Why would NERL getting rid of staff through VR mean they want more coming in? Overbearing allegedly seems to be the issue (and if you believe that then I've got some lovely magic beans for sale on eBay..) so surely by that logic, no new trainees to area for a good few years.
What could possibly go wrong with a great plan like that.

Because if the VR situation goes CR then the won't legally be allowed to recruit AtCOs for Nerl for two years.

Plus I don't think there will be as many brum controllers stating with Nats as you might think. Lots will be set up with families etc in the area and perhaps don't fancy moving to another Nats airfield

NATS appear (and I emphasise 'appear') to have a policy of getting rid of those controllers at the top end of the pay scale ie experienced but expensive so that they have less outlay per unit on salaries. They are then replaced by people already in the training system. NATS then get their fingers burnt when as sometimes happens these new people fail to reach unit competency, hence they end up short of staff.
A person I know was given an 'offer he couldn't refuse' to take VR last year as he was at the top of the payscale.(he was only 55 I think)

whitelighter said:
"Firstly, its likely right now that NATS will stream you Basic>ADI>APP for reasons that I wont go into here."

NATS don't train APP??

Sorry, meant APS. That'll teach me to blindly copy formt he previous post.

NATS are the big players, having had a monopoly on the industry for years, however don't be put of by the private route, I have witnessed much success on the private route, myself included. One lucky soul even came straight of the basic and ADI course only to find himself in Doha a year later and they have never looked backed. Go for NATS but have a good look at Cwmbran and GlobalATS as well.

Self sponsored training
 

Being honest I have no idea what the cost of self training in a private college is.

I imagine its significant if you are being trained to radar rating standard.

Despite the noise from Europe there is actually a finite amount of ATCO positions continent wide.

With an ANSP's there is a strong possibility of employment as they typically train new ATCO's when they anticipate a shortfall.

Following training with a private college you will have your qualification (based on national rules or future EASA ATCO Licencing is a massive difference).

If you fail to gain employment within 12 months it may no longer be valid and you will have to pay more to revalidate.

We have lost a significant number of ATCO's to sunnier climes but all had a min of 5 years experience.

Many ANSP's who take direct entry ATCO's typically want 5+ years experience simply because they should easily attain a local rating without much conversion training.

regards

Are you sure? You are not allowed to fill the post for two years but nowadays every position in NATS has a unique number allocated to it. They could get round the two year rule by creating a whole load of new numbers (i.e. new posts) in the system (before commencement of any VR/CR) and recruit to fill those, leaving the vacated numbers unused for two years.

There are always loopholes, unfortunately.

Hey wannabe!

It's an expensive route to take and £45K all said for ADI and APS isn't far off the mark. If you're successful in gaining a place with NATS then that really is the best way to gain your licence and your ambition to control aircraft.

However, be careful in limiting your geographical area; you are really cutting your chances considerably with availability plus there's a big wide world out here to explore! :)

Good luck

I'm not 100% sure anotherthing, and I am sure there are many far more cunning than me, but certainly when I was involved in making redundancies in a different industry we were not permitted to recruit anyone for the same role after making people redundant, and even if we changed the job title the tasks included in the role were looked at and our company legal team advised us we would be open to employment tribunals etc from redundant staff if it appeared we were in effect actually sacking them, not making them redundant, as we were essentially immediately recruiting for the same role albeit with a different title (and salary - less of course)

Wow.. things have changed. I recall a number of ATCOs retiring and then carrying on working in their same grade, thus earning full salary plus their pension.

PS What does NERL mean please?

Nats En Route Limited as opposed to NSL, Nats Services Limited.

Nerl are the regulated London and Scottish FIR body, NSL do the airports, TC for the LTMA and a load of other commercial stuff

I think you'll find TC are very much NERL not NSL. NSL are the Towers, basically, that's the bits that NATS has to bid for as opposed to the 'monopoly' stuff.

Whitelighter. Many thanks.

Nope, TC are NSL despite being in the same building.

The VR is NERL staff and doesn't affect TC for example.

Are you sure about that? :confused:

Well I was....

Sorry whitelighter, in this instance you are wrong. TC is very much part of NERL.

So, what would happen if NATS lost one of the London airport contracts? Would there potentially be non-NATS staff at TC doing the approach function for the concerned airport? Or would the new ANSP be forced to relinquish the approach function to NATS?

I stand to be corrected, but I believe that the approach sectors in TC have all been absorbed into NERL. Luton was added during one of the recent 'CPs'. CP2 I think.

That's the way I've understood it too, that for the London airports the bid is only for the aerodrome service and not approach.



To get back on the original topic, I can't help but think when I see this thread that if you can get something for free, why not take it? If you one day really want to move back then I'm sure you will be able too, but if ATC is what you want to do isn't it worth the sacrifice of moving? Especially when you not only get free training but also a salary during training (albeit a very modest one). That alone is more than 99% of people will ever get in their lifes, and even if you do self-fund your training you will have to move for the actual training (unless there's an ATC college where you live) and then still have no more gaurantee of being able to move back.

Oops - ok well you can't be right all the time.

I gracefully defer to my learned colleagues :)

Perhaps someone should tell the TC staff that they are no longer NERL and needn't worry about VR then...? And maybe the GM too?

Glamdring,
We've sort of been there before. Many years ago, NATS lost the contract to to provide TWR/APC at EGGP.
The problem was, the EGGP DECCA 424 wasn't the best approach surveillance radar in the world, so much of the N0.1 Director function was still carried out by area and approach staff at EGCC, on an amicable and reciprocal basis.
I'll scratch your back, if you scratch mine. Worked splendidly for many years.
Then local management/politicians/accountants took hold.

You can guess the rest.
Many more track miles were flown, with all those naughty pollutants, decibels, and CO2 emissions that SESAR and FAS are trying to eliminate.
Hope it never happens.

Not strictly the case: any airport can contract its aerodrome & approach services from any ansp, it's just less likely that the London airports would take theirs out of TC - but they could, if they so wanted to.
Surely no-one needs to worry about VR? It's voluntary, if they don't want, surely don't volunteer. CR would be a different matter, but VR could well be an opportunity for some.

Remember the old military aphorism - "a volunteer is someone who doesn't understand the question" ;)

Thanks for all the information. Currently thinking about moving back to UK to re-train in ATC. Found this thread very useful if not somewhat confusing with all the acronyms. A sign of things to come I guess :O

As a side-note (but still relevant for the original poster) remember that non-NATS units will consider any ATCO applicant when there is a vacancy, but NATS will not even consider qualified non-NATS ATCOs for their vacancies, unless you are personally known to the unit in question. Not an issue if you want to work at another ANSP, but a real problem with career progression generally, especially in the south of England.

<<NATS will not even consider qualified non-NATS ATCOs for their vacancies,>>

Guess things have changed. They took me on in 1971 and I was non-NATS (or Min of Av in those days).

<<NATS will not even consider qualified non-NATS ATCOs for their vacancies,>>

I think this was generally the case in the 80s and maybe even into the 90s but from what I understand, it's very definitely not the case any more.

so we've got the 70s, 80s and 90s covered. Any advances on the noughties?

I wonder how much of that is to do with the applicants? As soon as I joined I had to take an Approach Radar course which, by coincidence, was running at the same time as the Primary course which I would have been on had I not explained that I held a valid UK ATC Licence. Several people on that Primary course had licences but had simply done as they had been told and not questioned the decisions.

I left Heathrow Tower for TC in 2002 and there were certainly several non-NATS controllers who went straight to Heathrow from UK airfields, and they are still there.