Guys in fairness,
While I don't agree with everything p_perez has posted (in fact most things) at least he has given us the other side of the story. This is a debate, not a slagging match.
I for one am glad to have both sides of the argument.
And no I'm not ATC :}

KTT, In fact pperez said the opposite:

Listen before you talk, read before you post. You wouldn't happen to have an agenda, would you?

Reading comprehension:

Reading comprehension - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia :confused:



Saludos! :ok:


(ant1: ;))

OK, I stand corrected; by my experience, EVERY spanish aircraft in Madrids airspace gets priority; pperez's assertion that it is a rare event is simply not true!

But still no comment re the video and the reaction from the many posters who have expressed outrage and despair at so called professionals who control the spanish skies!

Its true, every spanish aircraft gets priority over all other aircraft every single day both on the ground and in the air in madrid, with very few exceptions. To say it happens "on occasion" is total BS.

P_Perez

Thank you for your reply.

But, I encourage you to advise your fellow controllers who run the practise of giving Spanish aircraft priority to stop. This sort of behaviour severely damages pilots' respect for Spanish ATC. I been sat next to many fellow pilots who curse ALL Spanish controllers because of this and I have fumed at times.

How is your union lobbying your DEMOCRATICALLY elected leaders to change a very unfair and unsafe system? It seems very little has changed since the days of General Franco.


Everyone else reading

I was drawn to this post as I DID hold a lot of animosity towards Spanish ATC.

However, I suggest everyone STOP and take the time to read what information P_Perez has posted. Yes, the video within the ATC centre was shocking, but now imagine your airline/country imposing the same restrictions that effectively tie your hands. Think of the frustration of trying to encourage and reform in a country which is strongly adverse to such actions.

Read more, type less!

Guys, you are definitely making too much rumour about this video. Watch it once again, cool down. I can see that:

1. there is some management' clown in a funny baseball hat walking all over the room and disturbing operational staff
2. all the people who are walking behind and making photos are obviously at their breaks and don't work at the moment
3. 1/3 - 1/2 of people in front of the screens don't even turn their heads around to see what's going on, they remain perfectly calm and focused on their screens
4. most of the remaining stay plugged and seated, paying attention to their screens, just turning their heads for a moment to see what's going on
5. only one guy sitting next to the board does unplug and stand up, but he might have been working at some quiet sector (even in Spain at the moment not every sector is at 110% capacity all the time), or doing some non-ATC work at the moment, just utilizing the station, i.e. for maintenance
6. sometimes a friend walking behind, tapping you at the shoulder just to say 'hello' is more disturbing to operational work than whole this situation
7. if you are from Britain, you'll never fully understand why people from Spain express themselves by shouting and whistling. It's just a cultural difference. Spaniards don't have any idea why do you eat this crappy English food as well.

1. If a man walking is disturbing, then that is well...disturbing.

2. Are they obviously on a break? How can you tell? If they are should they be joining in with the whole circus?

3. Which means 2/3 to a 1/2 do turn around and pay more attention to what's going on behind them than they are to there job.

4. Which is what everybody should do.

5. Does it matter if your sector is quiet? If you are only controlling one aeroplane is that less likely to have an emergency or need your help? Nope. But you've buggered off to the other side of the room so tough, our problem for being on a quiet sector.

6. One person saying hello is more distrurbing than what looked and sounded like a bunch of chimps fighting over a banana? Really?

7. Cultural differences apart. Professional still means professional.

If i would be as frustrated as these guys seem to be i would simply resign and get another job elsewhere. The world is a big place which is actually in need of persons intelligent enough to pass those very strict assessment tests like those ATCOs hopefully have to. Frustration over a job is certainly not worth endangering others lives or even my own health.

Denti, that is easy said and hard to do once your past the "sell off by" date, roughly 35 to 40 in Europe. I trust that a lot of the spanish controller like their job, but not how the development goes. I also, as mentioned before, see their schedules as dangerous. If they protest these, they are right. All I ask them to do is to reconsider who they penalize how and what the possible gain from that is. (and some things we don´t like are imposed by management, so...)

Are you an ATCo? If you're not - believe me - they are going to join this cirus as long they are on a break. I belong to a completely different culure, but if I were them, I would.

As long as you're not an ATCo, don't judge them. If they are just to turn around for a moment - it's no problem. Not every situation on a radar screen requiers a constant attention.
Yes, it does.

Does it? I can guarantee that this aircraft didn't need controller's assistance. No ATCo, all over the world, would ever take their sight off of the screen in case of any aircraft needing their assistance in case of any emergency.

You're obviously not an ATCo. You've never worked as an operational ATCo in a big ops room and you should not express your opinions until you'll get some experience on this.

Well, this is what I've been saying for like a year, based on my local knowledge and insights (in a way I have "seen" that video before :uhoh:).

I have always argued that I do not care how mucho dinero they get paid (which is how it all started), and I have stated that I would be more than happy for a German, Swiss, French, even an Italian controller to be on Spanish salaries. That is because I feel I'm getting my money's worth from them--the French saved my bacon one day before I even knew I was in trouble, the Italians saved it again some time latter (this time I knew full well I was in trouble :E)... the Spaniards closed my flight plan after it'd gone ALERFA. If that's not being a dangerous **** you tell me what is.

And no, they're not being "overworked" insofar as they are doing the exact same duty hours as last year... or they would be, if they all didn't start pulling sickies so colleagues have to cover for them.

I believe they were quick to tell you on this thread how many of them were off "sick" because of stress, blah, blah... what they might not have told you is that the government have decided that they be checked by social security GPs (rather than their own doctors), who found no grounds to justify a medical leave on something like 80% of the cases.

They should all be sacked--the competent ones amongst them (and there are, albeit very few) can always be rehired latter.

...and you shouldn't express yours until you have seen Spanish ATCOs performing. Believe me, you wouldn't be defending them if you had. :sad:

Kick the Tires:

How typically spanish! You scored an own goal with that video, have lost credibility and indeed the support you had from us within this debate so you stick your head in the sand, deny everything and then start to get aggressive

How is that "tipically Spanish"?

Below par
 

Spanish ATC performs below standard even on a normal day without any strike.
Unfortunately with this ongoing strike pilots also loose respect for the Spanish ATC.

Some time ago coming in late one night, ATC told us to fly the full approach procedure.
Since there was no traffic in the area we ignored them and cleared ourselves direct to final.
This is of course an unprofessional actions and does not belong in aviation.

That night we lowered ourselves to a level of Spanish ATC and I´m not proud over it.

No of course not (I hope). But what would happen if an aircraft had an emergency while the controller was not at his station and was off performing like monkey? Would he even realise? No. Would he be able to offer assistance straight away? No. Not performing his job, end of story.

Oh that's ok then? Lets make the disturbance and distraction worse because we're on a break. Brilliant.

No I'm not an ATCO but I have visited several ATC centres in the UK. I am a professional and behave so at work like I expect others to do. Especially if they are supposed to be giving me a service. So I can judge them from a professional point of view. Being an ATCO doesn't excuse immature and irresponsible behaviour does it?

Why?

After my experience into IBZ the other night, give me no Spanish controllers, thanks very much. I'll do a better, and safer job on my own. Bunch of chimps.

Dunno, been there, done it. It wasn't hard, but very much worth it.

Denti, you make it sound soo easy. It takes a great deal longer to validate as an ATCO in a diffrent ATC unit with a new employer than as a pilot changing to a different type with a new employer. Furthermore, most ATC organisations/companies will not take you on at 40, no matter what previous experience you have.

For Slickster,

Ok. Quite Easy. Don't fly to Spain.

Best regards from a "chimp"

I would really like to shed some light on all this issue but it is getting somewhat late and need to catch some sleep. I'll try my best quickly though.

Please take note that we Spanish ATCO's are going through a very difficult moment. Our Government has thrown our T&C's down the drain (and we are not talking only about salaries here) and collective bargaining has been substituted since 05/02/10 by one ad hoc law after another that applies to us on an unprecedented scale in Spanish democratic history.

Toss in mass media giving only one side of the story and the fact that we are being used as scapegoats by our own ANSP in order to cover up the massive debt they have managed to get themselves into (due to heavy investments in the construction of unnecessary airports and infrastructures)... and one can start to picture how much fun it now is for us to walk into work.

And yes, believe it or not, we are *very* concerned about the safety issue surrounding this kind of work environment and conditions. Umpteen reports have been filed and we have written to every possible person and establishment you can think or come up with.

Thank you and I hope to have the pleasure of having you guys passing through one of my sectors soon.

Thanks jlms. Any chance direct the center fix :rolleyes:

A very good resume of the differences between the 2 professions.

My little finger is telling me that a controller strike is cooking in Spain, and if that materialize, the Governement has already declared it is planning to replace the controllers by the military. Again if that is done, and for those old enough here to remember 1973 and Nantes, more interesting times are probably coming in Spain.

I do not think this scenario is in Microsoft FS, so we might lose a lot of posters here.On the other hand a total lack of understanding how ATC work has so far never prevented anyone here to deliver a stong opinion on how it should be done .

Unless I misread my Spanish, President Zapatero has publicly stated that he will not bring in the military.

Yesterday's Las Provincias printed an article stating that the Spanish ATCo's were considering up to four days strike action.

Jlms,

A nice balanced post; hope you slept well!

I enjoy flying into BCN - the controllers are generally unbiased and will not vector us around the skies too much to allow a spanish aircraft to get 3 miles in front of us! It happens of course, but not as much as Madrid! :ugh::ugh::ugh:

The ground controllers especially earn my respect - they look out of the window before giving instructions, they help me when I take a wrong turn on the new taxiways and they speak english whenever there is a deconfliction between us and another spanish aircraft. Again, sadly not the case in Madrid.

But thats how respect is earned; a professional job done in a professional manner. Such people will get my support in disputes such as this.

Total panic in the voice of a MAD GND Controller the other day when an inbound taxying aircraft requested an ambulance urgently. Clearly overloaded and unable to cope with the ambulance request and controlling at the same time, his R/T became rude and abrupt := .

Lighten up ATC W. Have a go at the twisted buggers here, not the sarcastic buggers. Got to be room for a cheeky comment even in the most sombre situations.

It's worrying - ground controllers in Mad are hopelessly incompetent buffoons during normal ops, who only seem to concentrate on giving spanish aircraft priority....when there is something abnormal/an emergency, these are not the people you want to have dealing with it.

I don't think they do that anymore. I have been cleared surprisingly before Spanish airlines a few times recently. Also I notice that Iberia is complaining much more over the radio about ATC than they used to do. Sometimes refering to the fact that ATC seems to forget that they are the "national".

A good example in Madrid the other day. We arrived at the holding point where an Iberia was already waiting. We were cleared to line up. Iberia than questioned the controlers about what slot time we had. It turned out that our slot was 3 minutes after theirs!!! Upon hearing this the Iberia pilot went through the rooth!! :D

I dunno mate, my experience in the last week in Madrid, like always, is that ridiculous priority is given to Spanish airlines....the height of unprofessionalism and the level of frustration it builds up in the flight deck is a threat. :ugh:

We had to laugh today, going out to 36R, we had the usual 6 frequency changes from clearance to tower.

I kid you not, EVERY one said 'station calling' in response to our check in!!!!! Its sad but so so funny!

Hello kick the tires,

Remember, with the new Royal Decree they are working 29 shifts in 30 days, This is, from June, in 60 days just 3 or 4 days off. No more. 50-55 hours per week, with night shifts. Discount on salaries around 70% ¡70%!. Sick days and hollidays are not being payed. Not a single weekend off.

Only one word: Mobbing.

I would say as well, Station calling, pleeeease, say again :ugh:

I am quite embarrased with the position of our fellow pilots, only kicking and beating controllers. I would ask for a little bit of comprension, very bad times for the Spanish controllers. Next one could be you.

Welcome Neoliberalism.:{

LH2, you really don't have a clue, do you? As I previously said to another poster, don't buy into the first story you hear.

In Spain only a Social Security doctor can send you home so they were sent home by SS doctors.

The government put pressure on those doctors (just like some companies put pressure on us on fuel issues, etc.) to revoke their decisions. After that, the Gov went on saying that if they could not stand the pressure maybe they should have their medical revoked. Cinism at its best.

Dusthog, the full approach at night is a consequence of the "Italian sentence to jail" (again do your homework). After that sentence the concerned Spanish ATCO's have tried to get -to no avail- a written answer on whether they are allowed to give visuals at night from the Spanish authorities.

I agree with you, you shouldn't be proud. I don't agree though that you lowered yourselves to the level of Spanish ATC. In Spain there's a saying: each one performs to his own standards (the ones that reflect who they actually are).

Mc Nutty, the biggest buffon around here is you but I guess it takes all kinds to make a world.

Strike!
 

Surprised nobody said anything as yet but there it goes.

92% of the controllers today voted (92% of 2036 active duty ones).

98% of them (1800 more or less) voted to strike. Dates not decided.


Good luck.

Spanish air traffic controllers to strike | World news | The Guardian

18th August.

At last some spine.

Question for the Spanish ATCO's - are the salary figures quoted in Chesty's link correct?

I just looked at the video posted previously and have to say that I am not surprised.

Not long ago we were in the cruise over Spain and we could not get a response on the assigned frequency where we had previously established comms.

Thinking we had missed a call, gone out of range or had a comms failure, I asked my colleague to continue making calls while I called on 121.5.

Imagine my surprise when in the background of the "Station Calling Station Calling" I could hear my colleague calling.

5 seconds later all was normal and they could suddenly hear us again - Station Calling !!

perhaps there was a bun fight going on like the one on the video. :)

Salary figures
 

Negative!!

I can only tell you about Barcelona, but with ten years experience in BCN ACC I made close to 120.000 with the basic hours(1200) plus around 400 extra ones. I was one of the better paid, most of my partners never did an extra hour and they earned around 80.000.

That was last year, this year they are paying all of us around 60000 for 1750 hours.

Still, the money is not the issue, most of us are having only 3 or 4 days off each month, our holidays have been cancelled, people on sick leave taking medication non compatible with our job have been forced to go back to work and so on.

Best regards

This has to be stopped. Dangerous. To launch a strike because of such problems is right.

totally agree, days off are essential to recover and! revitalise!

What a shame the support from a large portion of the pilots is diminished by their experiences with the ATC in Madrid and indeed the assertion that we are all talking :mad: and there is no such thing as discrimination between nations aircraft!