Runway vacated means....?
 

Please can a lowly pilot ask a trivial question of such grand ATCOs!

If you ask an aircraft to call "Runway vacated" at what point should they call?

1. When the aircraft has cleared the runway.
2. When the aircraft has completely crossed the line for the holding point.

I have heard arguments for both.

1. You're out of the way and another aircraft can physically fit onto the runway.
2. Until you cross this line you potentially interfere with the ILS signal so aircraft cannot use it. Also, you need to have a safe distance between you and the aircraft thundering along the runway.

2. When you've crossed the hold point - you are still technically ON the runway within those hold lines - they are where its considered enough space to get another aircraft in!

Across the line - all of you. One of my pet hates is operating from the less rigidly controlled airfields where pilots are blatantly economic with the truth or use rather flowery phraseology (eg "G-AB clear of the active runway"). :bored:

Once the complete aircraft crosses the
hold short line..

Here's one i'm not sure about: In LVP's is it mandatory to call airborne?

It's not. Where I work the SIDs state "When airborne contact departure".
We use the terminal radar to confirm that the departure is airborne.
If you do stop, it is mandatory to report "C/S STOPPING [reason]"

We asked the CAA the same question a couple of years ago, ever pro active, they declined to come up with an authoritive statement so a colleague asked on here and was directed to an out of date ATSIN.

We now have a MATS Part 2 entry along the lines that;

Provide that the ADC ATCO can fully and clearly see that the entire aircraft has vacated the runway and is continuing in the same direction towards and beyond the holding point, the aircraft is considered to be "runway vacated". In LVPs, or at any other time that the ADC Atco cannot clearly & continuously see the aircraft, the aircraft must be instructed to report crossing the holding point before the runway can be considered vacated."

On the other hand at UK aerodromes with NO ATC:-

What constitutes a clear runway?

Any half busy airport where the controllers waited for the entire aircraft to be over the CAT 1 holding point would suddenly be a lot less busy! As has been said as long as the aircraft has vacated the physical runway itself then next aircraft movement can take place. That said I've seen some amusing calls from pilots calling vacated, the pilots may be, but the other 300pax are most definitly not! Especially important in LVP's, where you are not considered vacated until the aircraft has passed the last yellow lead off light. (UK)

I beg to differ.
About 70% of our traffic are Heavies and therefore have wingspans exceeding our 60 metre runway width. Having seen several arrivals prop on the rapid exit short of the stop bar for no particular reason, it would be a brave person to fire the next departure just because the tail was past the runway edge.

"Runway Vacated"
 

Tower told me to contact ground after Runway Vacated. That means after the aircraft has passed the holding point (two dashed lines and then two solid lines when vacating). So I took my took my time to wait until the aircraft passed the holding point before contacting ground. The joys of flying with different Line Training Cpts. One told me to wait til we cross the holding point, while the other said he considers runway vacated when clear of the runway edge.

My questions:

1) If you fly the Airbus Family aircraft like an A319, A320, or A321 where the length can be long, how can you be sure if your tail is clear of the holding point, so that you can report "Runway Vacated"?

2) Is it acceptable to switch to ground before actually clear of the holding point and say, "Ground, FastAir 345 vacating runway"?


Thanks

I seem to recall an incident at LHR involving an aircraft calling vacated and the next aircraft using the runway had to 'swerve' to avoid hitting the fin of the vacated aircraft. IIRC one of them was a VS A346.

Must admit in LVPs it is very annoying when an aircraft reports vacated when the nose wheel has just started to turn off the the runway centre line. A lot do it or report vacated when the flight deck has just passed the CAT 3 stop bar. Never mind the other 175 people behind!
On normal ops when you aren't going to stop report vacated when the back of the plane has passed the physical edge of the runway 'cos then we can use what is termed 'anticipated separation'. Sounds dodgy but all the busy airports, and some quieter ones when it gets really tight, use it all the time.

HTH

And remember the distance from the runway to the holding point can change with the class of approach operations.

So 90m may be OK in CAT l conditions but this increases to 137m for CAT ll/lll.

At bigger airports I've always advised crews to use the alternating green and amber taxiway centreline lights as a guide because they denote the Localiser Sensitive Area.

Anticipated separation based on the route and velocity of the subject a/c is all very well providing all participants understand, agree and make appropriate calls within the scope of the operation.

The cross runway anticipated departure clearance at La Guardia is a good example.

SGC

.....and on an instrument runway?

I refer the Hon Gentleman to my previous post - para 3.

See CAP168 Chapter 3 para 4.0

SGC

On a similar theme, I have always wondered about the phrase "vacate (05L) and hold short of taxiway juliet" at Manchester. Surely, if you are holding short of Juliet in a big jet, your backside must still be on the runway. Anyone alse thought this?