I think some people are underestimating the scale of move:

Comparing it to WD to Swanwick move:
I know loads of people who commute from southampton area to london area. the opposite direction is even easier. For those with working partners you could have moved into the middle and each continued in your jobs

Glasgow is further from manchester than Manchester is from London. It is north of Moscow and closer to the latitude of St Petersburg than London. Hell, the SNP want to ally more closely with Iceland and Norway than London

me, me, me, me said
Increasingly that is not true with devolution. So far Westminster may have been less popular but that will change I am sure. Who knows how far devolution will go?

You can make yourself unpopular (or worse) by cheering for England up there.

That is a whole different ball game to the WD-Swanwick move

What has that got to do with the move?

I have a lot of sympathy for the guys moving up here who are having to uproot their families.

However...This has been on the cards for a while and so anyone who arrived at Manch in the last 5 or so years really has no grounds for complaint.

We are a mobile grade and the staff at Manch are being relocated.
The original point of this thread was regarding negative equity. I think it is a real kick in the balls down to timing. Unfortunate, but one of those things - not that anyone is taking it lightly.

To say its a diffrent country is sh1te. I'm not scottish, neither is my wife. We both love it here and ScOACC is a great unit to work at (even if the ops room equipment is currently the Life On Mars version of UK ATC!). All the guys are friendly - and sympathetic to MACCs plight re: moving family/changing schools/jobs for partners etc.

It is different from the WD/LAC move because, in my mind, you could still have your house/partner/kids in London and make the 2 hour commute down the M3. Not the case here. Its about 3 and a bit hours depending on traffic to see the missuses family in Manch.

So dare I say Quit whining about the actual move and put that effort into moving. Address your legitimate concerns over negative equity etc with the company. Scotland bashing won't do you any good.

(Ducking for cover from the expected incoming!)

I'm not moving, I just thought some people were underestimating the significance of the move which was a bit unfair on OP and his colleagues- maybe i went a bit overboard though :}

BDi


Sure PC "O" date Jan 2010 has been made known for a while now.

At no point have Management said when MACC closure date will be.

The two are not the same, so plan around that one, unless you want to make the announcement on here ?

Huh? Your question makes no sense.

BD

It's just a very 'Olde England' view of the provinces. We live in a multi-cultural, multi-racial, global village. Many of those moving work in a highly-skilled, high-tech, well-remunerated industry... and yet they appear to believe that civilisation stops at the borders of Blighty.

Anyway... English people don't get a hard time for supporting England up here... That's to be encouraged.. It's any Scots supporting them who get pelters!! :p

Zooker,

I won't argue with the fact that in some cases, the training regime let trainees down - as it does at any unit - but hardly ever in recent years from TC, and AC who used to have a bad rep for training are having much more sucess nowadays in getting validations.

However the majority of people who failed at the units you mentioned did so because they were simply not good enough in the time allowed.

One of the reasons people who get moved to another unit to continue training do so well or succeed, is because they have had the benefit of 3 or 4 hundred hours at their previous unit... giving them a total training time of 7 or 8 hundred hours.

So the question is still valid, there are many people at MACC who may well havebeen out on their ear if they had not been given a second chance... whatever the reason for failing!

Stupendous Man

Having moved before 'O' date and done the commute in reverse (not literally), I can assure you that even a one hour commute either way is not really acceptable. And the M3 is one of the worst motorways in Britain...

There is no doubt at all that the negative equity thing is not good, however playing Devils' Advocate...

As you quite rightly state It is these people who will be in negative equity, as someone who bought more than 5 years ago should still be in surplus (unless thay bought badly). Bearing in mind investments may go down as well as up, to quote the adverts...

If I was a hard nosed company man I might say to someone who complained -

"Houses are not guaranteed as a cash cow, there have been price drops in the past - you knew when you were posted to MACC that you would have to move to NPC which would involve selling up... You took the decision to invest in property, that investment has, (like any investment can), just gone belly up... not our problem"

The company, although not exactly winning any friends, would be entirely in their right to take that stance.

I don't agree with it, but it is a fact.

Serious question -

To those who have brought up the very valid point about negative equity, what do you want the company to do about it?
Who will decide what, if any, level of compensation you will get?
How will it be decided?
Will it be a flat rate for everyone?
Will it be your purchase price with a percentage added on for each year since your purchase up to the beginning of the move window?
If so, what about the fact that different types of house and different areas sustain different growth?

Just curious, because like anything, it's all very well saying you have a problem, but if you can have a solution or at least a starting point for negotiations in your mind, you will fare much better when taking NATS to task.

Does the AHPL (Assisted House Purchase Loan I think) still exist?

Interest free (although there are tax implications depending on size of loan) loan from company when relocating?

This may be an option for some people to help with deposits. I know it doesn't address the issue of neg equity, but every little helps.

Perhaps NATS could extend the rental window - normally a year iirc - so that when the market hopefully rises again people won't be hit as hard. Obviously the downside is that the Scottish Market will have risen too.


Anotherthing
I wasn't suggesting that any commute away from family is easy - just that some are more manageable than others.

SM

I didn't think you were - just pointing out that for quality of life, any commute can be deemed to be too much, depending on the individual. We used to have an assistant at TC who commuted from deepest Norfolk!!!

It's all down to the individual at the end of the day as to what is an acceptable commute, bit for those at MACC who try to say that the WD move is completely different from the MACC move are not being realistic.

Even with an interest free loan (if it's still available); it's still leaving people out of pocket...

Regardless of relocation packages, Prestwick is still a comparative sh1thole. :{

off topic
 

:ugh:

Anotherthing - quote

"How many people at MACC are at that unit because they failed to validate at 'busier' or 'more complex' units?"

As seems usual this is totally off topic but seriously what are ridiculous point. AC - busier and more complex?

Anyway this is not the point. Stupendous Man - thanks for your post, nice to hear the positive sides of ScOACC from someone who actually knows

ZOOKER - who is this fool renowned for chucking in his two pence worth and stiring things up, you are not even an ATCO and just a wannabe, go jump in front of a train!!:eek:

Krait

The 'point' is there are a lot of people at Manchester who have fauiled elsewhere, for whatever reason.

Some people might say they were lucky to be given another chance and therefore should not be whingeing about having to move to NPC (being still employed and a mobile grade etc)

As for the busier and more complex, that's why they were in iverted commas in my post. However, AC is busier and continues to grow, unlike MACC, however, that's besides the point and only because you questioned it!

^^^^I'm sure there are lot of people at MACC who were posted there as their first posting.

Anotherthing

If you are going to make derogatory comments about people at Manchester at least have the common courtesy to make sure your spelling is correct, assuming of course you weren't "passed" when you made the post.:E

You can hardly blame controllers if the traffic figures are dropping off, or is that also down to their lack of band 5 ability? "25 aircraft an hour" it said in the Guardian! Band 4 would never be able to manage that.
The point of this thread which started out as very sensible, is that the negative equity issue of the moment, means that some people cannot (not will not) afford to move there, without taking a 50k hit and buying a bedsit up there. The company has a duty to make sure its workforce are not doing a 4/5 hour commute to work.
It is also not an issue how many people are retreads from down South, they company had a chance to get something from there investment by retraining them at MACC or SCACC or an airfield, nothing in that, takes away a controller's god given right to moan and whinge.
What good is an interest free loan? None.
But despite sensible debate, there will always be poeple who are not involved, getting paid more, who feel that they know best about soemthing that does not affect them.
I have a great deal of sympathy for the people who were posted straight to MACC, who would have loved to go to Swanwick, but will now never get the chance, and will never earn Band 5 cash, through no fault of their own. Personally I couldn't care less, I earn plenty, and am not arsed what other people earn, but some people have to stick their oar in, and it is usually the people who earn the most

So the sensible question still remains unanswered... If you feel that moving from Manchester to Prestwick is going to put you in a negative equity situation, what would you have NATS do about it? Keeping in mind their actions would need to be realistic, costed and sustainable over all movers now and in future.

Scottish house prices latest figures
 

If it's any help :)
Big fall in Scottish house prices :ok:

Scottish house prices have suffered their biggest quarterly fall for at least 16 years :eek:

Maybe its not so gloomy after all :) a profit of £92,537 can be made on the average house price, could be a good time to move and invest?

BBC NEWS | Scotland | Big fall in Scottish house prices


Manchester house prices

Trafford
Average Cost: £247,415


BBC NEWS | In Depth | UK House Prices | Manchester

South Ayrshire house prices

South Ayrshire
Average Cost: £154,878


BBC NEWS | In Depth | UK House Prices | South Ayrshire

I would like a Gulfstream 5 or 4, parked at EGCC to fly me and the people on my watch that I actually like, to and from our shifts at EGPK
That alone would cost less than what NATS lost on some houses in the TC move? no? unreasonable?

Why not club together and buy one between you all, a few AAVA would cover it :)

notared/northernmonkey1261

If you read the whole of this thread, you will see that it was people from MACC who first mentioned 'illegal banding' and 'the injustice of relocation'.

To counter that, I asked the question about the number of people who were at MACC on a second chance, and if they were amongst those who were now whingeing - yes whingeing - about having to move.

I am not talking about the negative equity issue - you have my full sympathy regarding that. However we continually get told about how unfair it is for people to have to move from MACC to NPC and it gets tiring.

As for the negative equity thing, I say again that NATS could be bloody minded about it and say the following
I think it would be unfair and very poor of them to do so, but you guys need to start thinking abut what you want done about it now... MACC are moving, you are not getting away from that fact,so that in mind what would you guys like NATS to do about the negative equity issue?

I repeat
Because there is a lot of sympathy on this thread from people who are not at MACC, but no one from MACC has actually said what they would like done about it (apart from saying the move is unfair - yawn).

You guys have a serious issue that needs resolving, however if you go at it half cocked and don't have a clue about how you want it to get resolved, NATS will bend you over and shaft you again.

You need to think of sensible ways of getting the shortfall back - see above - and also think about what ther company might counter argue with - see my point about different areas/house types having duifferent levels of equity growth etc.

The move is still some way off, but you need to start sorting this out now - otherwise you will end up doing what NATS is good at doing and that is firefighting at the last minute... if it gets to that stage, you will be buggered.

they can't do much, people will just not move

Quote

I would like a Gulfstream 5 or 4, parked at EGCC to fly me and the people on my watch that I actually like, to and from our shifts at EGPK

Oh no not banding again:ok:

A Gulfstream (band) 4 must be less complex though, therefore easier to fly... :}

I was thinking more like a Cessna 150 :}

Gulfstream (band) 5 has more fancy tools and automation though?
Gulfstream (band) 4 is better value for money?!
Same licence required to fly both!!! :}

A TC Gulfstream (band 5) unforunately does not come with all the snazzy tools and automation...

Band 6 for LTC anyone? :E

The problem with the biz-jet option is that you would suffer significant ATC delays on the return leg due to the third rate, failed controllers. :E

But we could buy so much more as we are waiting with our band 5 money!

Getting back to the original post......:bored:

Is anyone from MACC actually going up to SCACC when PC opens in 13 months time ? :eek:
Management must be scratching their heads as to how the hell they are going to man it, unless the rumour from my previous post which is the "backup plan" is true :confused:
http://www.pprune.org/4521663-post22.html

no way on earth is there enough time to delegate any airspace or sectors from MACC to LACC, why would they be arsed to learn it, why would MACC lads and lasses be arsed to train people on it.
never happen.

The same way possibly as Scottish were lumbered with N SEA from LACC and still get shafted when LACC take "sickies" at weekends dumping their traffic on the lads and lasses at Scottish, or so my source up north tells me:)

Your source is talking b:mad:cks

Yes, your source is talking sh:mad:te.

I can't remember the last time someone on my LAG was sick at a weekend. Comments like that help no one at all and quite frankly are pure crap. Your source is obviously bitter they got sent to Scotland.

For the record, I'm not laying into Scotland, just having a dig at their source before the s**tstorm starts

Yes he is rather bitter, probably wrong too :uhoh:

So it did happen in the past ?

What - LACC North Sea had sickness problems, sector closures and traffic being shifted north into Scottish North Sea sectors? Yes, but as I say, not for a while, perhaps even a year in my own experience. While it wasn't what I'd call a common occurrence, it wasn't what you'd call "uncommon". I'm not sure if the problem was just "sickness", understaffing or a combination of the two, suffice to say it did happen.

I beleive ScACC may be undergoing the same problem at the moment, and still management want to remove more from the night shift!