I'm not a union member either. There is no option to tell the pay department that you're 'different' to other people. Nor is there an option to try and bargain by yourself, unless you're a PCG. Those who are not PCG's are in the negotiated grades and the union is the only body which can engage in collective bargaining.
My non membership of a union is nothing to do with money and I am one of the negotiated grades. Should I feel guilty about the 'free ride' I get?

BD

I'm sorry that you have some 'issues' with my posts. We're all different and the world would be a boring place if we were all the same :)

Merry Xmas :ok:
BD

That's what drives me mad about you BD, you can be a reasonable guy when you want! :}

Merry Xmas to you and all.:)

We are all screwed!

Barron will be laughing his tits off this weekend at this result.

One chance to show how we felt and stand up to Management crap and the corporate bolloxs!!

We failed and now we are going to get what we deserve.

Dont worry CTC will probably get another Starbucks.

Thats the problem with a democratic ballot, you get what the majority vote for.

BD

Homo Simpson - Seriously, cut the CTC bashing b******s, it really is getting quite boring. This affects everyone, not just ops units.

HASTYDEPARTURE, I think the "keeping our powder dry" statement came from an ATCO Chair around 10 years ago. If we were evrr to light it then it was over PPP, and I reckon you could count on 3 hands the number of ATCOs who really got involved with the anti-PPP campaign apart from sending the odd letter to their MP. Certainly not many were at the Houses of Parliament canvassing them directly.

I see you have been taking advantage of the AAVA agreement. That was a deal negotiated on your behalf and subsequently past pay rises have included the "selling" of that deal to management. This is what helped you to around a 40% pay rise since PPP.

It certainly is disappointing that only 70% found the time to put a x in the box and go the local post box, but maybe this is an indication that there is a reluctant acceptance that there really was no real option to that presented. Also an acceptance that there is no other career that most of us would rather be employed in in the present down turn.

Just look at your employment conditions and honestly say that "the union" has not done you proud over the years from salary to SRATCOH.

Nothing ever stays the same in life and you don't always get exactly what you want, apparently unless you are a NATS ATCO and think the rest of the industry owes you not only a pretty good salary, job security but also a class leading pension. Well unfortunately the "real world" is closing in on us as the ATSAs at Scottish are sadly finding out now and those at LACC will discover in the not too distant future.

You still have fine conditions of work and will continue to have in the future.

I look forward to the debate in the future.

What exactly has happened to the scottish ATSAs? Have the LACC ATSAs got anything to worry about other than iFACTS (£130 million spend to date) slashing some of their jobs. I think ATSAs have done well to keep their terms and conditions since West Drayton closed, I believe most of them have been grossly overpaid since its AC closure 8 years ago. There is a lot of top of the scale ATSA 2 and 3 in the LACC ops room earning between £35000 and £45000 inc shift pay for doing nothing more than putting strips out. NATS would be wise to use these current economic turbulence to start paying them commensurately for their task, perhaps between £20000 and £25000 per year, inc shift pay. By reducing their salary, and therefore their final pensionable salary, it would also help to reduce the pension burden.
Controversial I know, but I think prudent all things considered.

rumouroid

I think you might have to change your name to hemmarroid after your "comments". You might be looked upon by the ATSAs as a right royal pain in the ass. I dont know exactly what you do for a living, but I for one appreciate the help from a good assistant.
May be you just sit in an office tuned in to the air band radio :E wishing you were pushing tin :ok:

Yahoo!

Yeah I know they would be, I was being generous, but I didn't want to be too mean because some sectors, not many though, still have an ATSA position that deserves a little bit extra, but I don't want to open discussions on sector specific pay, that really is a can of worms.

Vote NO

Sorry, but my office is in the ops room in front of a radar.:=

I also appreciate the help of a good assistant from time to time, but overall they do a lot less than at West Drayton yet still receive the same pay. If they were subjected to the old "time and motion" survey I think they would come out as overpaid.

bidnou
If everybody took a free ride you would have no union,who would you turn to when Barron says "you have no job"

Rumouroid........what a total fckunig arse you really are with comments like that......would be glad to meet you anytime to have your comments explained, please come on up here to Scotland and repeat your comments to the ATSA's that today have been told they may no longer have a job in NPC..!! what can you really see of the real world with your head up your arse???

And I thought I was being controversial, but reasonable as usual of course:ok:

fisbangwallop

Sorry, as my previous post states I didn't know what has happened to Scottish ATSAs today. I do feel terribly guilty now, however, unlike a lot of NATS ATCOs I've worked outside NATS in the "real world" for several large organisations, therefore I feel slightly qualified to make a judgement based on my observations of peoples jobs.
Why is my post any more controversial than those that bash CTC staff? I'm not saying ATSAs are unnecessary workforce like a lot of people say that CTC staff are, I'm merely suggesting that they are somewhat overpaid and I'm only speaking about LACC ATSAs as I have no knowledge of other ops rooms.
For example Police Sergeants and Inspectors pay is similiar to ATSAs as is Nurse Team Manager and Modern Matron and Warrant Officers in the forces, do you think they all should be paid the same?
Until recently NATS employees have never really lived in the "real world".
As a no voter I'm obviously bitter and disappointed with the result today, perhaps that's why I posted such a controversial post? Sorry if any offence has been taken, however I still stand by what I said.

I dont know what i'm more disappointed about. The fact that it is a Yes vote, or the fact that such a large amount of atco's either couldn't be arsed or didn't think it was sufficiently important enough to vote on!! That both saddens and sickens me. This was THE issue. The one issue that everyone has always said would get them out of the door, their pension was sacred and yet such a large percentage didn't vote!!!.:ugh::ugh:
I'm afraid that the way i feel at the moment is so disillusioned with the whole thing. i think i will now join the disinterested ranks.It doesnt seem to make a difference. I dont feel the union any longer represents me and the issues that are important to me. I feel they have been quite aggressive in their targeting of this deal and they have gotten the result they wanted. My only interest in union membership from this point on will be the legal backup provided.
For those that voted yes, congratulations
For my fellow no voters, commiserations , we tried our best.
And for those who couldn't be arsed to vote at all :=:=:=:= shame on you:sad:

Has anyone thought that perhaps some of those who did not vote had decided they didn't know how to vote? 'Undecideds' as the pollsters describe them; that abstaining reflected their positions better than 'yes' or 'no'?

Those would be the same ones who say turn left, correction turn right, correction climb, correction descend :}
If a bunch of ATCO s cant make their mind up on a two choice decision.....heaven help us all :)

So return the papers as "spoiled" then. That is the correct way to show abstention as opposed to just can't be a*sed.

Is it? Nobody has quoted 'spoiled papers' or 'abstentions' in the results here, merely Yes %, No %, Not voted %.

Rumourold ............

Paul Barron commented earlier in the year that he thought "ATCO's are about 20% overpaid"

Using your logic
Would not this be an ideal time to reduce ATCO's salary to what Mr Barron feels is more commensurate rate for the job ?