Call me picky, but are they not discussing the future of my pension. Do I not have a right to know????

I am told we will know on Monday, but who knows ?

I saw a union rep today and he did not look happy, but I might be reading it all wrong:confused:

So a union rep looks unhappy - not a great sign possibly, if related to pensions - however it has to go to ballot. I don't care how unhappy or happy a union rep looks, I will vote to walk out the door if the company tries to sell my pension down the river.

Hopefully others will feel the same.

The union can and may advise its members to accept something, but it cannot make them. They are Reps - i.e. they represent us. They do not unilaterally decide for us.

sr562

Exactly and Pensions is the first battleground.

I am amazed the Union has agreed something has to be done about Pensions when all we have to go on is a censored Management commissioned report.

We need an fully published Independent report on the state of the Pension fund and we need that report to answer some questions, like what state would the fund be in if NATS hadn't had a reduced contribution since 2001.

Not industrial action per -se, but in the event of workforce displeasure, those staff who have shares could sell as many as they can, NATS has to pay you £2.85 or whatever the current price per share is*, and then as no one apart from the employees are allowed to hold them, they get re allocated. Straight back to you. Money, AND most of your shares back again.

*I'm at home atm, so can't check the actual price

That is so true CU. Everyone who has the early tranche of shares should be selling them. Share price is up and is unlikely to get higher while in an economic downturn. Plus then they all get reallocated, so as said above you get them back! People who say they're going to hold onto them are clueless!

Are you completely sure about how safe those funds are?

*As in all things, divide and rule is the game that gets played by the ruthless. First, if you have not yet retired, then you are a second class pension scheme member until the day you start drawing your pension or accept a first class transfer deal into another good scheme (if you can ever arrange such a thing without resigning). If anything goes wrong with your bit of the NATS bit of the CAAPS before you actually take the money out then the retired members feeding off of your bit get first pickings. As a still contributing member, when your (sub-)scheme t|ts have gone up, you only get allocated a proportionate share of the (crumbs?) left over. irrespective of any numbers you have seen to date.

Oh which company will that be and how will that help you? Employer companies do not have to go down the pan in order for defined benefit pension schemes to be scuppered.

Very good question. The tone of posts in this thread does not bode well...(See * above)

Of course it is entirely possible or perhaps probable that the pension scheme will be rescued short term, in order to make NATS a viable proposition, (£2 Billion in either GB's or DC's treasure chest) if and when we are sold off to, dare I say it....SERCO......:eek:. in the next two years.
I fear we have kept our "powder" dry for far too long for short term gain. I see death by a "thousand cuts" every single day at work. Time alas is running out:sad:

well,

according to the union communication that came out yesterday regarding the pension, Therefore when it come to the pay talks, we should go in asking for more than RPI+1.5%, and accept nothing less than it :ok:

Not been at work for couple of days...would be interested to hear what latest Union update was...if people dont want to divulge on here with non-NATS people, a PM would be appreciated.

Thanks

is it me?, this reads like 'oh look at the poor company, we are so poor help us out, we have no money'

maybe before they herald record profits in pravda, i mean pulse, they should spare a thought to those people who have created a major portion of those profits and perhaps reward them , rather than saying sorry chaps and chapesses we havent got any money...
As far as them having to contribute at 20% , well if they had been contributing when they should have, rather than taking an extended payment holiday , they wouldn't be in such a position.
Capping future pensionable pay rises?? ok as long as i can cap the red barrons rises. If he's worth over 10% why arent i?
The bit that worries me is where they talk seriously about a second pension scheme, and ensuring any new scheme provides similar benefits, and this would protect against a two tier feeling. What happened to one NATS one pension???
I feel a cave in coming..

Well that's the killer isn't it?

It looks very much like the same old divide and rule.

Say ok to any deal including that and you are straight on to the slippery slope.

Then it will be revised retirement ages denying another tranche of fifty-somethings the chance to get close to 38/38ths by extending ...

No doubt a sale is very much on the horizon and the sellers have been told this is essential to get sold.

No doubt some of you are expecting to get sold and others not. Those that are are no doubt split into the expect-to-haves and the expect-to-have-nots. Slice and dice, if not divide and rule ...

Sounds like clichés? You bet.

I hate accountants. Did I ever say that before?

There's certainly some novel stuff offered up as options but is it worth your detailed attention? We all know the stock market is in a mess at the moment so unless you know that 'the detail' was based on a valuation and projection as of yesterday rather than as of 3 or 6 months ago or whenever Deloittes figures were valid then surely the figures are already out of date.

That 42.1% is horrible burden for any business, but if you deserve it, then tell them to bash ERG to allow you to double ATC charges to start filling the holes. They let BAA double parking charges over the last 5 years (at least). Not sure what their excuse was. As a frequent flyer when I plan my trips, I worry far more about parking charges than anything I ever pay an airline or what my airline needs to pay the ANSPs. That can't be right, surely? The airline can take care of itself, but you guys? Not sure. Seems the airlines will take real good care of you given half a chance :}

Whilst NATS too are still effectively a monopoly, they might as well act like one and redress some balances :p. Better in your pension funds now than in SERCO's coffers later.

Far too easy for me to say of course.

What do you reckon your shares might be worth versus your pension post-sale (if a sale occurs?). Well you'll get offered a firm price for the first, but the second will thereafter sit on shifting sands, won't it? :hmm:

Decisions decisions ...

one nats one pension, otherwise i am voting no.

one nats one pension, otherwise its industrial action.

apparantly a strike was mentioned to management during the last talks and they are ****ting themselves.

this does not bode well....

Sounds like union are resigned to two tier pension scheme...but am i right in thinking that this sounds a lot like...'new employeees will have a new ****e...i mean riskless pension, AND the current pension will change too?!

Nail on the ******* head.

Someone i know high up in union told me yesterday that we can expect something to come out fairly soon...something along the lines of an extremely good pay offer in return for changing pension. Whether that meant current and new pension for newbies or just new one for newbies...i dont know. However, that is where the battle is going to be faught and won/lost isnt it? Much like last pay deal 'here, have a couple of extra grand....theres no catch at all...oh, except we are going to gove new trainees nothing...but you dont care about them...they know what they are getting before they apply so dont worry...'

Management know what they are doing (oi! im serious...stop laughing), they will have been preparing for these negotiations for years, they will have plan after plan to get what they want.

As said before ....they took a payment holiday....so pay that back(part of last 5 years of profit should have provided for that easily) Then we can see what the standing is. Secondly there are many final salary schemes where the employer has raised costs to cover it....post office was one as they went to the regulator to change their policy.....same should be done to CAA. Thirdly, why are share dividends being paid when the pension is such an issue??
Mentions in the union statement of capping pension rpi+1% for current members....well based on bottom of scale that makes for quite a bit less 25 years down line.(if i got sums right, correct me if wrong).
Overall a two tier pension will divide workforce which management would love....next 2 tier pay claims etc. A larger pay rise for next year?? well that woulld be selling us down the river with no gains at all, just less to look forward to on retirement.....and they would have saved millions the process.
I feel that the bag of coal and oil drum may finally become useful!

Unless the aforementioned payrise/bung has 5 zeros at the end of it, I'm not interested and they can shove it where they see fit.
I agree that we have been guilty in the past of accepting the odd grand here or there as a bung but this is a completely different issue. do the management actually have the slightest idea of how we feel about this? Chucking us a few grand on another payrise, which shouldnt be connected to the pension issue anyway, is just asking for a strike.

I completely agree with mr 777, The management are taking the P*SS out of us with these negotiations. The pension should not be linked to pay talks.
They can take the pension off me right now if they give me 500K tax free to invest in my own pension as i see fit. That is the minimum we will be losing if you look at recent retirees forecasts.
Don't try and sugarcoat it and screw us over on the cheap. I will gladly bend over for 500K.
But I will also give up ojti/aavas/my second non core sector.
If money is an issue, RENATIONALISE.
RAISE route charges.
STOP spunking money money pointless get togethers/projects that will never reach fruition.

Quoting from the July statement jointly from NATS and NTUS following the meeting Pensions Committee at the end of June:

• The Actuary’s report showed that the assets of the NATS Section as at 31 December 2007 were £2,983.7m, compared with £2,785.3m as at 31 December 2006. This includes the value of money purchase additional voluntary contribution (AVC) funds invested separately.


Not knowing how well insulated the funds are from the likes of the FTSE100 plummet of some 10%? in the last few months (worst case -10% of £3bn is -£300m) I might nevertheless surmise that the scheme may already be in deficit at this moment.

Call me cynical but as one who has worked for the CAA and nats for the past thirty years just bear with me. There may be other factors that are not obvious.
1) There is a way to break bad news and that is to give VERY bad news first and then when the truth is known it seems like good news.
2) There are a lot of very senior people who if they stay after 8th April 2010 will be obliged to stay until the age of 55, however if you suggest that they may be problems with the pension fund then rather than take the risk they will leave voluntarily and that would save nats enhanced retirement and salary costs.
3) This is no criticism of the respective union reps, but if the unions have no influence over Mr Barron or the management then let them be honest and say so and then we can make up our own minds as to where our personal interests lay and then we can plan accordingly.
In conclusion these MAY be factors in the managements plans particularly No2

One Nats - One Pension. No Exceptions
 

Does anyone have any links/more info regarding the guarantee that was made at the time of privatisation. As in - what is covered by it - nothing/everything invested to date/everything until retirement??

NATS runs on the goodwill of it's staff. If OUR pension is tampered with then I will not do any additional duties, instructing or ava's. It may cost me a little each month but if they do not care about their staffs future then I will not care about the companies..

The first step MUST be for the company to look into smart pension investments.
After that - stop wasting money on awards ceremonies etc.

IF NATS IS SO STRAPPED FOR CASH THEN STOP TELLING US HOW MUCH MONEY YOU ARE MAKING ETC ETC

This may and probably will sound daft but excuse im ignorance....

How can a company take a "holiday" from paying into the pension? would that not mean that as employees we should be entitled to the same holiday entitlement, so maybe what we should have been saying to the company is for the % of the correct amount of funding the company is paying less then as employees we should be entitled to do the same! We live in a land of so called equal opportunity!!!!!

Basically im my opion we would not even be discussing this if the company paid what the should have been doing the whole time....and since we are meant to be a non profit making company then the pension pot is where any profits should be going!

:ugh:

Can't quite remember where I saw it but I believe that Barron stated that "he didn't sign up for that"

Mind you he also told me personally at a bar stool session that he would preserve the pension as "I have transferred into it"

EW less than eight years to go...and concerned.

Given the very significant impact of our proposals and efforts we had taken to seek to address
issues of cost and risk, whilst at the same time providing and protecting high quality pension
arrangements for our members, we had hoped for a positive outcome from discussions with
management. However, management have now set out a fundamental principle which they describe
as “non negotiable”. Any pension arrangements for new entrants must be free of risk from their
perspective.

This is a direct quote from the statement. I thought the whole purpose of Working Together was to get to a position which broadly suited both sides.

If they really mean "non-negotiable" then I see that as the end of WT and Prospect should advise management of that immediately and it is effectively the end of recent Industrial Relations as we know them.

Pay demand should be RPI+5%-non negotiable or we ballot for industrial action. It works both ways.

As management have now decided that aspects of a NEW pension are "non-negotiable" perhaps it's time that the union informed management that their repayment of the money owing to the pension fund from their payment holiday is now NON-NEGOTIABLE including interest that would have accrued over the 6/7 years that this money remained unpaid.Then we can look again in 12 months time and see how healthy the pension scheme will then suddenly look.
I know this is a naive outlook but this should be the starting point of ANY union negotiations not immediately suggesting a 2-tier pension scheme straight away as in the union announcement.

250kts said: WELL SAID!!

Unless the company pays back ALL the money they saved through pension 'holidays', reduced contributions and lost interest I will vote NO to ANY pension reforms.

We are members of the CAAPS not NATS pension scheme. What are the other members (non-NATS) of CAAPS currently being told about the scheme???

250 kts


I have long thought that Prospect had a far too cosy a relationship with NATS' management and believed they should have been less understanding of the their problems and more understanding of its fee paying members' problems.

For us to agree to the company drastically reducing its Pension contribution and then them turning around and doing this is a grave breach of trust and I don't see how Prospect can ever work with the present management again.

Taking no action is really not an option. If the staff choose to roll over on this subject just where do you think that leaves us for the foreseeable future? Shafted I would suggest. Management will rub their hands in glee knowing that a couple of %, if we're lucky each year, will have the effect of shutting us up.

If we don't fight for this there is no hope left for our other terms and conditions.

Barstewards makes a good point...Quote"
We are members of the CAAPS not NATS pension scheme. What are the other members (non-NATS) of CAAPS currently being told about the scheme???"

I to would like to hear the response to that to....what about our mates "SRG" etc.that never had to move over to NATS, how is their pension going to fair????

If we give up on this battle we may all as well get a job down the jam butty mines as we will all be well and truly shafted for ever!!!

This show of unity is encouraging, however just supposing we did go out on strike even for a day I can guarantee that some atcos would still come into work if the management made it attractive enough.
The younger ones who would sell their souls for double overtime and are in so much debt they have to, particularly in the present economic climate.
The older ones approaching retirement who are not affected by the pension changes and could do with extra money to top up their retirement fund.
I have never underestimated the greed of atcos and I hope that I am wrong but it has happened before admittedly not recently but if the management make it worthwhile we all might be sorely disappointed with some of our colleagues actions.

Going on strike would be a last resort - we would get absolutely no sympathy whatsoever from the public.

With less than 4 years to go for me, I'm naturally worried about the future of my pension - after giving nearly 30 years good service to CAA/NATS I'm resentful that after putting in all the effort for this company they've now repaid me by putting me in the position of being concerned about my future retirement situation.

Giving up extra sectors, OJTI and AAVA's will be effective enough provided we ALL do it together.

Giving up extra sectors, OJTI and AAVA's will be effective enough provided we ALL do it together.

Absolutely correct Min Stack .

There is no need to strike

The CAA aspect of the CAAPs are watching with interest with these negotiations. The concencus is though that if Nats close the scheme to new entrants then they will inevitably follow suit. One Nats, One Pension!:hmm:

Min Stack said This is the problem.Everybody needs to be on board - time to talk to colleagues and explain to them that taking a short term loss will lead to a long term gain.Selling your soul today for a few extra pounds will cost you tens of thousands in the future.


It also applies to non-operational staff - no overtime (if that exists), stick rigidly to your contracted hours - if your work cannot be completed within that timeframe then it goes unfinished.

Finally, most of us have gone into work when not 100%. Maybe a small cold, possibly lack of sleep the night before due to an ill child or partner. If management goes ahead with their proposals do not turn up for work unless you are 100% fit to be there.

[B]Former Alstom workers have pension hopes dashed again

London, May 16 /PRNewswire/ --

Workers at the former Alstom plant in Lincoln have learnt from a company website that they face further swingeing pension cuts.

Despite assurances from Alstom, who sold the gas turbine site to Siemans last month, workers have discovered through a letter from David Curtis, Alstoms' International Director of Pensions, posted on the company's website that workers applying for early retirement faced a further 20% cut in their pensions.

Workers who retire before 65 already face pension losses of 30% and have been kept totally in the dark over the new plans.

Joint General Secretary Derek Simpson said:

"Workers are justifiably angry about their shrinking pensions packages and the fact that they have had no opportunity to be involved in negotiations on the future of their pension arrangements. Alstom have treated their former employees very shoddily."

The changes came into effect on 1st May and were discovered on the Alstom intranet pension website on 8th May 2003.

Only 5% of the 2,300 workers at the site carry on working until the age of 65 so these changes will make a massive difference to workers' pensions.

Siemans have said they are committed to working with Alstom and workers at the plant to find a solution to the scheme.

A delegation of six shop stewards from Lincoln are travelling to London on Monday to the office of the Alstom Pension Actuary, in the hope of talking to Alstom Trustees who are attending a meeting there.


I just found the above reference to Barrons' previous company posted in 2003. I can't believe he wasn't a member of this scheme and will benefit from it and then joined NATS where he will no doubt do exactly the same again.

Barron has form on taking the benefits and then doing a runner

Or attend work but make it quite clear you're unfit for operational duties.

Or losing sleep worrying about what you thought was a cast iron safe pension and retirement.

250 that's an extremely lateral and exquisite piece of research you have come up with there a few posts back - it lifts the lid - congratulations. Was he a pension scheme trustee at Alstom perchance?

NATS March 2005 accounts yield up some interesting info:

http://www.nats.co.uk/uploads/natsho...rch2005ara.pdf

If we were to ever vote for strike action and then find ourselves standing outside with oil drums and donkey jackets I would be extremely annoyed at anyone who broke this picket line. Strike action does not go on forever, and when it was resolved how could these people expect ANY kind of courtesy or help EVER again from ANYONE.
There is nothing the management could do to make me come in if we were on strike. I have a big mortgage, a kid on the way so now i need money more than ever but there is nothing attractive enough to make me break a picket line.
As for public opinion on a strike,I agree it would be 0% approval (ish). But i couldnt care less. they are more than welcome to fly away on their hols without any form of air traffic control, as long as they dont fly over my house. I dont want aircraft wreckage on my rockery.
:}

Interesting point from Eric, In the late 1970s the atsas went on strike at West Drayton and some atcos who were on their days off came in to do the atsa task. Thirty years later some of those individuals are still around and the "atmosphere" is still very palpable between them and the strikers. Fortunately we are all in the same boat this time.

To coin a well known phrase...Mr Barron, you can have my pension when you pry it from my cold, dead hands.

Anymore news...nothing heard this morning at work.