London SVFR - all OK?
 

Treading on eggshells here. Have noticed - shall we say - a little tension in the air since the switchover to Swanwick. A lot of holds - a lot of refusals. Today "SVFR is being closed due to staff issues" was one tx heard.

Would phone you for a soothing chat - but the numbers keep changing!

Is all well now that Pickfords have left ?

Staff issues :mad:?

I know who that is then!

Knowing some of the ATCOs there I suspect it is one individual letting the team down.

Apart from him, that little group of ATCOs are a brilliant bunch, I've shared Tea and Cakes with some of them!

PS. Have you sent my Christmas card Alan?

Well well. Can't be me. "We do not have a requirement to retain you". Great forward planning.....
BTW Dizzee, great tea and sticky buns, thanks again!

What a mess
 

Issued without any warning today:

Start date/time: 16/12/2007 12:30 UTC
End date/time: 16/12/2007 16:30 UTC
Activity period: null
Lower height limit: 000
Upper height limit: 050

DUE TO ATC STAFF SHORTAGE NO SPECIAL VFR SERVICE WILL BE PROVIDED
IN THE LONDON CTR ON 125.62MHZ.HEL TFC INBD TO HEATHROW, NORTHOLT,
LONDON(BATTERSEA)HELIPORT OR HAYES SHOULD CONTACT THAMES RADAR ON 132.7MHZ.FIXED WING TFC WISHING TO LAND AT HEATHROW SHOULD CONTACT HEATHROW APPROACH ON 119.72MHZ. SERVICE WILL BE OFFERED ACCORDING TO FLIGHT PRIORITY AND CONTROLLER WORKLOAD.

Apparently commercial airline traffic gets priority and SVFR is the first to go when staff fail to arrive for work. Which is fine unless you happen to be in a business which needs SVFR in order to stay in business.........

SVFR will be open today from 1400 onwards. Additional staff have been called in tomorrow morning to cover the ongoing staff sickness.
NATS is now, whether we like it or not, a commercial organisation that needs to make money for its shareholders. I am not party to the decisions made at higher levels, but if there is a shortage amongst Thames Radar/SVFR qualified staff, should those limited resources be made available to our airport and airline customers to whom we provide a service under contract, or to a commercial organisation that pays nothing for a service within controlled airspace, and that operates flights under priority Z? I do not know the answer to this question and I pose it for discussion only.

SVFR has always been at ATC discretion.

The flights are not Cat Z, they are normal flights i.e. filed a plan and operating in the normal way (for heli's inbound to say Battersea).

Would you prefer flights such as these to request IFR clearance into the Heathrow CTR?

I know that if my business revolved round heli flights to and from Battersea, and I have an IFR capable heli+ crew, I would file IFR via the heli lanes.

The Heathrow zone is established for the protection of aircraft arriving at and departing Heathrow airport. It is not for the purposes of excluding other flights. It does require ATC to integrate other flights especially those who have legitimate reason to require entry into the zone i.e. destination within it with those being protected.

When the Heathrow zone becomes EG-P-xxx or EG-R-xxx then flights can be excluded.

Regards,

DFC

Yet again, DFC talks with no expertise - you cannot be IFR on the helilanes and cannot be IFR into/out of Battersea.

And they are Cat Z! :) (MATS pt 1 refers)

Apart from that - good effort DFC!!! :ugh::ugh:

(I am with Red Ken - ban the lot of these silly heli flights unless operating in or out of Battersea)

At risk of pedant alarms going off everywhere, I can't find any specific MATS Part 1 reference to Special VFR in Flight Priorities: I think you may be referring to the "Special VFR flights are not to hinder normal IFR flights" clause - not quite the same thing, perhaps. Interesting debate, anyway!

DFC - entry into the London Control Zone by any low-level flight is at the absolute discretion of the controller at the time. If he says "no", that means NO. Full stop.

Alfaman,
Non standard flights in the London CTR such as photographic details are category Z, and are subject to tactical approval on the day. I am not referring to SVFR transits.

In my first answer I was replying specifically to JimBall's post.
DFC - when the SVFR position is closed there are contingency procedures to allow traffic into and out of Battersea to continue. We do not seek to exclude SVFR transits, but if suitably qualifies staff are not available, what do we do? I can assure everybody that the decision to close SVFR is not taken lightly, but this morning we only had two people to cover Thames Radar, Thames Co-ordinator, City Radar (EGLC were on Easterlies) and SVFR. What solution do you suggest?

IFR in the lanes?
 

Bright-Ling,

What rule stops you flying IFR on the helilanes?

herewego

Given the fact that the MSA in the LCTR is 1800ft - isn't that a consideration?

(You fancy being told to hold at Kew Bridge at 750ft IFR????)

Bright-Ling,
If I am clear of cloud, in sight of the surface with good forward vis, why not?
You have fallen into the trap of mixing up flight rules with weather conditions.

Isn't MSA the lowest altitude to which you can descend an a/c under receipt of RCS (i.e IFR) or vectored RIS or RAS? Weather conditions doesnt have anything do with it.
I stand to be corrected though...

Hi ATCO Two - my response is related to the one ahead from DFC; he specifically says he is a normal flight, yet Bright-Lings response seems to imply Special VFR always equals priority Z; my point being, that ain't neccesarily so. As for the Heathrow specifics, that's not my aisle, but if I was operating as a normal flight, but got treated as a Z, I'd be a little unchuffed - whatever the root cause.

To add a little to the discussion.
If you're flying an aircraft (incl Heli) which has a MTOW over 5.7 tonnes then you're paying charges to NATS/Eurocontrol all the time.
For the vast majority under that figure you're paying those charges when IFR or if any part of a flight is made during the night.

To say that the rotary world doesn't pay for the Heathrow Special/Thames Radar (excellent) service is a rather sweeping statement.

There is much confusion.

Category Z flights are non-standard flights such as photographic details.

A to B flights which have filed a flight plan in the normal way are simply normal flights. They do not have a lower priority. A simple test of this being if they were IFR, they would get a CTOT or a no delay requirement to depart within 15 minutes just the same as every other flight.

Special VFR flights are at the discretion of ATC at all times and in all cases or categories. That is because SVFR is in place at ATC discretion to permit aircraft who can not comply with the IFR requirements to enter the zone when it is IMC or when it is night or when it is class A - Heathrow.

IFR flights can operate below 3000ft, clear of cloud and in sight of the surface and not be required to comply with the 1000ft above obstacles within 5nm rule. Note - no visibility requirement!

Reflex, I think you mean 2000kg and you are correct - every heli above that weight pays.

Thus while I agree that if SVFR is closed then no calls for cutting the corner or SVFR transits to White Waltham via Ascott should be entertained, operators who are flying commercial air transport to and from Battersea should be accomodated either IFR of SVFR on a different frequency.

As I said the airspace is for the protection of traffic. Not for the exclusion of traffic.

Regards,

DFC

Very interesting. ATCO TWO takes the stance that if you don't pay for the service, then you shouldn't get the service.

Hmmmmm- so if we paid, would that guarantee that SVFR would always be available ?

I think not.

The airspace belongs to the people. Not the sub-contractor.