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-   -   Something interesting from the college.... (https://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/285693-something-interesting-college.html)

up in the sky 26th Jul 2007 22:09

Something interesting from the college....
 
Just a little rumour/truth from the college (believe what you want to)....of the 7 that sat Air/Ground on the last Aerodrome course, 2 failed.

Now, the usual process would be to re-course them on Air/Ground (providing nothing had been failed before) especially seeing as it is a "NATS requirement to pass" However....on this occasion, NSL management were "happy to accept" the two trainees on the current Approach course without the Air/Ground endorsement! Bearing in mind one of the trainees has failed every single course they have been on, how can this be justified? Are we really that short of controllers that college have to 'bodge' the results?

Now I know they have their Aerodrome licences, but one question to you is....how many people out there have been let go from NATS in recent years for failing Air/Ground after having their licence? I know of two in the past 6 months and one is now a valid controller outside of NATS....

Does this mean oral boards and summative assesments are an optional pass? Good thinking management :ok:

Under_the_radar 26th Jul 2007 22:19

Seeing as Summatives and oral boards are part of the assessment they would still clearly need to be passed!

As for Air/Ground you correctly state that trainees already have their licence at this phase, so is it not feasable that these controllers if axed could go to another unit, validate and then later reapply to Nats anyway?

Surely if they are not up to scratch once doing on the job training they will be let go, I fail to see where safety is compromised?

up in the sky 26th Jul 2007 22:25

under the radar...

I think you are failing to spot the sarcasm in my post. I am merely stating that at the college it seems to be one rule for one person and another rule for someone else. They seem to be making the numbers 'fit' from one course to the next.

As for those who have gone to other units with Licences paid for by NATS - my point here is if they are good enough for other busy units then why are NATS wasting money giving them a licence and not keeping them on if they are clearly good enough to validate?

intherealworld 26th Jul 2007 22:35


I think you are failing to spot the sarcasm in my post. I am merely stating that at the college it seems to be one rule for one person and another rule for someone else.
I don't think you're the only person to notice that.

"hmm, short of trainees - quick recourse all the failures!"

"hmm, too many trainees, these people might make it but lets chop them anyway!"

"hmm, no trainees, let's give everyone a bung to find some quick!"

Fires & fighting spring to mind!

What about certain trainees who fail, fail and fail again and somehow still get recourses? :ugh:

up in the sky 26th Jul 2007 22:41

intherealworld

Couldnt have put it better myself. you've hit the nail on the head. Maybe that should go in the NATS recruitment pack!

happ1ness 26th Jul 2007 22:59

College
 
Its been happening for years IMHO.

intherealworld 26th Jul 2007 23:07

Well I can't speak for other units but around LACC, most people think it's an absolute joke. A place where you have to go and dodge bullets so that you make it to a unit for some real training. Staffing a college with people ready for retirement (in fact with people who HAVE retired) is no way to train controllers of the future to cope with record traffic levels. It should be a centre of excellence with individual trainings needs adapted to. Not one course/method fits all.

Apparently quite a lot of foundation course have just failed oral boards. How can such a high number be failing? Because some people are determined to 'catch you out' rather than find out what you know! I know some people who have been chopped after failing an oral board over random questions that people here at LACC don't know the answer to! Including aircraft recognition questions on an AREA course. Aircraft performance is fair enough but recognition?? They all have 1 star/cross followed by 5 trails and a TDB at the side of it!

lobby 26th Jul 2007 23:34

"They all have 1 star/cross followed by 5 trails and a TDB at the side of it!"

Is the target symbol not a diamond either hollow, solid orange os solid yellow. Followed by six trails? :)

intherealworld 27th Jul 2007 02:21

Ok, I was trying to be generic in that instance! But as for trails, thats variable!

HEATHROW DIRECTOR 27th Jul 2007 06:58

I haven't a clue what "Air/Ground" is but reading this thread makes me very sad. Sounds like standards in ATC are going the same way a everything else in this world - down.

Spitoon 27th Jul 2007 08:21


Originally Posted by intherealworld
A place where you have to go and dodge bullets so that you make it to a unit for some real training.

You're lucky if you don't end up dodging bullets at a unit too!

Staffing a college with people ready for retirement (in fact with people who HAVE retired) is no way to train controllers of the future to cope with record traffic levels.
It's many years since I was there but I suspect we should take care to differentiate between instructors - perhaps with a lifetime of valuable experience under their belts - and managers who make the decisions about which this thread started. I can't help feeling that it is just youthful enthusaism - or arrogance - that imagines that someone reaching the end of a successful career, whether they can still do the job with contemporary traffic levels or not, has little, if anything, to offer to those starting out. A good and experienced instructor will transfer knowledge to a student that will be invaluable in the future - it's just that the student often doesn't realise it for a long time.

up in the sky 27th Jul 2007 10:14

i have to back up what Spitoon says here, its not the instructors that are the problem, its the managers making the decisions. It is more and more evident that NATS is now a business out to make as much money (or save as much by cutbacks) as possible, and not focus on the standard they are getting out of the college.

HEATHROW DIRECTOR
Air/Ground is a licence endorsement whereby when you get to your unit, you are able to work a 'split sector' almost, of one person doing Air (take off and landings) and the other on clearance delivery and manouvering on the Apron and up to the holding points ready to handover to the Air controller who controls the landing and taking off. Without it, you are told you cannot progress to your unit (or so we thought) as all NATS units apparently operate Air/Ground.

The Jellyman 27th Jul 2007 12:39

Over the last few years there have been numerous TATCs who have either been told they have been posted to regional airports (where there may be no GMC) but they are going Tower only initially or, are on their second chance having already failed a part of the aerodrome course who have sat the NATS requirement of Air/Ground. Either way, they have been told that despite passing the parts of the course that enable them to hold an aerodrome rating, if they fail Air/Ground they won't be posted and will be sent for training review, which can entail being chopped - even with a licence.

Now some bright spark has decided that passing Air/Ground is optional! What's the point in even doing it now? It's been totally discredited. What motivation will students have now for this part of the course? Disgraceful.

Geffen 27th Jul 2007 12:43

I seem to recall air/ground being a fun couple of exercises at the end of aerodrome 2. I don't remember it being assesed though.

REVOLUTION 27th Jul 2007 13:14

Air/Ground used to be a bit of fun at the end of Aerodrome 2 but in recent times I believe it has replaced the assessed LVP's module of Aerodrome 2. I think this was to try and prepare people better for larger towers who operate this system.

The college have always 'bodged' things in my opinion and had different rules for different people. What I would say is these people will be found out when they get to the units!

SilentHandover 27th Jul 2007 14:43

Air/Ground has not replaced the LVP phase of the course, you now do both.

2 sheds 27th Jul 2007 15:30

"Air & GMC" would be the correct description. "Air/Ground" is a radio service!

ImnotanERIC 27th Jul 2007 15:32

air/ gmc HAS replaced LVP's as the final set of summatives in the aerodrome phase of the college. you may still do lvps but you are not assessed anymore

up in the sky 27th Jul 2007 16:36

VFR, IFR, LVP's and then Air/Ground (GMC) are all assessed. Its the emergency phase that is not assessed

vintage ATCO 27th Jul 2007 16:37

It does all sound very sad, the way things are going. I am glad I have decided to retire at the end of September.

JIMBAMBOON 27th Jul 2007 16:57

Being a current TATC at the college this thread certainly makes for depressing reading and all the more because there isn't anything we can really do about it. The college has just failed a handful of TATC's from the basic course that in my opinion were by far adequately skilled to proceed onto the foundation course. Its the apparent random nature of the decision making that is most unsettling.

Nokio 29th Jul 2007 16:21

Surely the basis for pass or failure is results achieved, and examinations cover what is taught, and required to be known. From reading this thread I'm picking up the suggestion that this may not always be the basis, but my question is, how can it possibly be any other way? Sure I hear you, that what was once a requirement, air/gmc, in leaner times is not so, and yes this is unfair, but as far as the benchmark for passing exams, it is what it is right? Otherwise, it does sound very messy. :ugh:

Spamcan defender 30th Jul 2007 10:41

This really is not a new occurrence by any manner of means. I remember going back to my days at college when a few folks on my original course never made it past Air/Ground. Shame really.
On the other hand there were a couple of female students (Just an observation, not trying to stir) who were failing courses time and time again (fact!) who seemed to be getting continually re-coursed. This caused massive disillusionment and ill-feeling towards both management and the students in question. Definately seen as one rule for one and one rule for another.
Strange how it always seemed like the guys who were getting chopped, no girlies. This sentiment was shared by the majority of my coursemates at the time. dont know if it still rings true today.

Come on college, sort yourself out eh??:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Spamcan

Dances with Boffins 30th Jul 2007 13:28

fact

One was a "girlie", one was a "boy-ie" so you can scratch that particular accusation for starters.

Spamcan defender 31st Jul 2007 11:10


fact
One was a "girlie", one was a "boy-ie" so you can scratch that particular accusation for starters.
Fair enough, my memory is a bit foggy. I mean I AM going back to course 12X after all :O
Still, why should certain folks be chopped when others, who have failed the same amount of courses get a recourse. Not really portraying a good, unbiased image for the college is it????
This sort of thing does the rounds in rumour mills from course to course so it perpetuates whilst growing arms and legs. Hell, I was speaking to a trainee at the unit the other day who indirectly brought up the same story. Incredible!

Spamcan

up in the sky 1st Aug 2007 10:06

'positive discrimination' as i think it is known, has been happening at the college for many, many years. There are more male controllers than females, and by re-coursing the female students over and over again seems to be the college's answer to it.

A while back on my course, which was the old style basic course, a male student finished their summatives with 6 partly's and a female student had 12 partly's and 4 Not Achieved's. They both failed....
Now, I understand 'its the comments that count'....but were the comments that different? I think you can guess which one got recoursed...and which one got booted! :ugh:

Even the instructors cant see how some students get recoursed over and over again.

250 kts 1st Aug 2007 11:37

Well at least the ex-Watch Manager from LACC is now at the college to ensure both sexes are treated fairly.:eek::eek:

GT3 2nd Aug 2007 08:28

Two women from my course got recoursed then chopped. Late 1990s so it can't all be sexist and unfair can it?

phantomlurker 2nd Aug 2007 14:09

Oral Boards....
 
intherealworld: -

The reason so many failed the oral boards first time on foundation, is (IMHO) purely down to lack of preparation. By this i am NOT blaming the students - the redesign of the courses, together with a chronic lack of instructors has resulted in there being no practice oral boards, either on the basic course or on foundation.

Now i dont know how long practice boards have been part of the courses, and forgive me if i offend anyone who didnt have the benefit of an practice board at some point in the college, but i found the actual situation you are put in to be quite unnerving. When it came to my first assessed board, i was far better prepared - because i had been in that situation before. The last and the current foundation courses have not had the benefit (apart from some recoursee's) of a practice, and i feel this is reflected in the results, and may continue to be.

In a time when we need as many TATC's passing through the college as possibe (or so we are told) surely something as straightforwards as this really ought to be corrected.

Discuss!

ImnotanERIC 2nd Aug 2007 15:50

its not just at the college where some instances could be viewed as positive discrimination. people have got chopped from several units and been found a new place to have a go at. when some people i know have only failed one course or not quite made the grade at a unit and been chopped.


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