Nats - A Law Unto Itself
 

Is NATS or the CAA/DAP in charge of airspace policy?

I ask as it appears that NATS (PLC) are now setting the agender and defining what goes on in UK airspace and not the goverment organisations set up for that very purpose. This has become apparent as:

1, NATS will not provide RAS in Class G airspace.
2, Class D airways are treated as Class A. ie no VFR flight.
3. New Class C airspace to be introduced above FL195 will not allow VFR flight.
4. NATS wont accept formation flights opperating as GAT.

All of these are contary to policy, but this doesn't appear to matter at all.

Are you relating to a particular bit of airspace or unit Jack-oh . They are certainly not rules or regs that i am aware of at my NATS units and i can assure you we do provide RAS in Class G.

We don't have any Class D airways in my neck of the wood ( do they exist ? ) just normal Class D CAS and VFR flight is certainly allowed access to it subject to the usual criteria.

Can you be specific please ?

Hmmmm?

? It DOES, at LOTS of different units

Like Flower, I'm not aware of any Class D Airways. There is a certain amount of Class D airspace (Mostly CTR/As) that NATS does provide a service in... Both to VFR and IFR flights.

Ahem... all part of European harmonisation, and nothing to do with NATS. Oh, and VFR flight IS allowed BTW in Class C, its only Class A where it's not allowed (there's always SVFR).

Untrue. It will, and does. In many cases however our Military colleagues are better equipped to deal with larger formations, particularly in the event of diversions / emergencies with one or more of the elements.

Not quite sure what has upset you Jack, perhaps you could clarify?

No ANSP, including NATS can "set the agenda" as to what happens in Class G, even the Mil.;)

Rgds BEX

This sounds like a "North of the Border" problem that's been mentioned before (for the first item anyway). There are certainly class 'D' airways there also.

Generics are no good, we need specifics, then our learned readership can provide the answers.

Where do all these things happen ??

But in the meantime:

NATS Units which are mandated to provide ATSOCA have their areas of responsibility specified in the UK AIP. These are notably LARS units, which as Flower says, provide RAS in their portfolio. Other units might also provide services over and above what the AIP specifies they will, but that is at their complete discretion. For example Gatwick sometimes do provide ATSOCA, but there is absolutely no need for them to do so. I think it is fair to say that some pilots seem not to know what the services provided by some units detailed in the AIP actually are. As a prime example ... none of the NATS En Route Centres are actually classed as units providing either LARS or Middle Airspace Radar Services, except where they are the controlling authorities for Advisory Routes (but then that's Class F as opposed to Class G ;) ). If that's the thrust of your post, then it hardly seems fair to slate an organisation for not providing something it is not prescribed or mandated to.

Presumably examples of this have been reported to DAP ?? Anyone out there ever heard of a refusal taking place ? Of course if there were traffic reasons for doing so, or capacity issues, then that would be fair game, but the unit would also, I am sure, have logged those details for any subsequent witch hunt.

Oh dear, we are not doing too well. As mentioned, the changes to airspace above FL195 is a European initiative. And Class C does allow VFR, albeit controlled and separated from IFRs.

NATS (and other UK civil ANSPs) will accept formation flights as GAT, the only conditions are that they must be military and within CAS. There is no provision for providing an ATS to civil formation flights, or formation flights in Class F or G airspace, in the UK Manual of Air Traffic Services Part 1 (CAP493) ...... which interestingly is a UK CAA 'Policy' document.

As I say, give us examples of what has happened and where and I am sure the specific rebuttals or explanations can be provided by those in the know ;)

Darn! So I have been doing it all wrong since I got my radar ticket all those years ago...
If you are still at the unit you were at the last time I saw you Jacko, could it be that the levels at which to give/take handovers from the only NATS Unit nearby are below the minimum for a RAS from that unit?! :rolleyes:

Additionally it has been ScACC (Civ) policy for some time now not to provide a RAS outside Controlled or Advisory Airspace.

I take it you are having a pop at the new(ish) part time airway between Aberdeen and Newcastle (P18 IIRC)? VFR flight IS allowed in this airway subject to an Air Traffic Control clearance so I'm not sure what your point is caller.

Maybe you're just having an off day.....have a beer or three in the mess and chill out. Maybe a visit to ScACC (Civ) and your "adjacent" NATS unit for a chat would reveal more than bleating on here and jumping to assumptions.

Toodle pip Carruthers!

Funny this should come up now.

This morning I heard a pilot (I believe using RAS) advising/complaining Southend ATC about a close encounter, and the response was something like 'well you're playing in class G airspace, that sort of thing happens'.

I will admit I wasn't paying much attention at the time, so take that as an approximation of the situation.

I very much doubt they were getting a RAS at Southend. Its primary only, the best you will get is a RIS with all the airways traffic overhead. :}

The point I was trying to make was mainly aimed at NATS En-Route. Where as you can imagine the manopoly occurs.

Scottish civil will not provide RAS in class G and rumour sugests this is creeping in south of the border, but as you can imagine there is less GAT in class G down there that is being worked by civil, the majority being given to Mil to contened with.

Class D airways do exist. The point about them being treated as Class A is valid contary to policy. If you cant except VFR traffic in it when there is IFR traffic then dont call it Class D. This is eutopian thought process but if an ac declares itself to be VFR within that clasification of airspace then separation is not required between it and any other ac, so why does it matter if the airspace is busy with IFR ac. If it does matter then call it class A, B or C.

Class C airspace is to be introduced next year, and will replace class B in the UIR. However as class B airspace requires separation between all ac irrespective of flight rules it has no practicle differences to class A. This is the way the UK has functioned for a long time and rather than embracing the change to class C, the rules will be fudged so to all intensive purposes we end up with Class A/B again. Hardly the concept of european single sky. Again if the VFR / IFR thing doesnt work then say so; don't call an Ass a Donkey and expect no one to notice.

Mil formation flights will not be worked by civil controllers, instead a mil formation must file as OAT and be worked by Mil. Not a great heartache you say, but all the formation flights departing the UK for places sunnier must now fly OAT to the FIR boundary and then pick up as GAT to fly the routes they require. Not bothered, well this means that Mil ac cant use the shortest routes but must be weaved around everyone else until they get out of the UK, where our European counterparts will then have to intergrate them into the flow system because we couldn't be bothered.

I am a civil controller in NATS en-route and work Mil formations flying as GAT every day up and down the country.

You are talking c*ap!

I hope I am, it is only what I have been told. What about the other points

jack-oh.. You seem to have got several things wrong. Are you an aviation professional? I ask as your profile conveys nothing..

The OTHER points:

.
Already answered. They aren't required to. NATS ER Ltd operates under terms specified in a Licence issued by the UK CAA on behalf of HMG

Nobody has a monopoly on ATS in Class G in either UK FIR.

ahem.... You do not seem at all familiar with the operation of class D airspace, as comments about a/c "declaring" itself to be VFR show only too well.

VFR flights do not need to be separated from IFR flights, but they do need an ATC clearance, all a/c in the airspace need to be provided with traffic info, and then theres good old "duty of care" also. There could be many reasons why a/c could be refused a VFR clearance, and they may not be immediately obvious to other ATSUs or indeed pilots. Nevertheless there will be a VALID reason, and it will not be a policy. If you are concerned speak to the relevant ATC Sup who will clear it up for you.

Pure conjecture. As it happens the mil have been FULLY involved in drawing up the relevant procedures.... haven't they told you yet?

By whom? The Ass or Donkey that you refer to in your post?

rgds BEX

Another untruth, they are free and able as everyone else to file GAT. There are occasions where civil controllers when they see the flight details appear at Swanwick request LJAO (London Joint Airspace Organisation), the Mil that works inside CAS, to work the flight. In these cases in my experience through my airspace the formation actually gets the direct route and we move around it.

As for being "intergrated into the flow system" then the process is exactly the same weather GAT begins inside the UK or elsewhere, the flight plan is filed and then any slot will be issued once accepted.

I have had the "pleasure" of the Red Arrows de-formating due to cloud on my frequency during a reasonably busy session. I'm not trained to deal with this situation and do not have the time to deal with it should it happen again, the workload is too immense, however our LJAO friends are perfectly equipped for such a task hence they are normally asked to work such a track.

Totally agree with 5'. Work military formations all the time. The only problems that occur are when they can't maintain a tight enough formation and end up blocking too many levels, or in inclement weather conditions when they can't maintain their formation. In either case this dramatically increases controller workload more than any other single flight, unless in emergency. Therefore it's sometimes easier to allow our experienced military colleagues to take on the job!!

DTY, HD and Bexil,

I think you need to give Jack-Oh a bit of a break as the points he has raised have substance.

With regard to RAS he is correct that ScACC do not provide RAS in class G. Indeed this was one of the factors that led to Airprox 198/04. Not an issue in London FIR as LACC only operate within Class A/B. ScACC do not have the luxury of so much class A.

With regard to Class D airways, I believe the issue is that you cannot have an Class A that does not exist all the time, hence the reason the airspace was established as Class D. (correct me if i'm wrong).

DFL 195. Europe issue, we will all have to comply eventually.

Formations....he is indeed NOT spouting Cr@p. Nuff said.


I'm thinking about my doorbell, when you gonna ring it, when you gonna ring it!

Widger,

Sorry a few inaccuracies there!

LACC and A/B Airspace.

Sorry, but we do provide ATSOCAS in class G. Certainly on the West End, it's a necessary evil. Most don't like it but, there you go. What we can't do is provide a radar service below FL70. You also won't find many giving a full RAS!

Any ATSOCAS we do give are a secondary duty, as far as I'm concerned. The airways traffic is primarilly what we're there for. This is the reason that a full RAS is very rare. As a rule you'll only get one if we need to have you on a heading for separation reasons, but that one's been done to death!

Part Time Class A.

Sorry your also wrong here. This is called a Conditional Route (CDR), an example of which is L18 (a short cut to EIDW from MALBY) This route's hours are published in NOTAM form on a daily basis. The route is published closed in the day due to military activity in the NWMTA and also activity at Aberporth. In the evening it opens up at about 1730 Z until early the next morning.

Hope this helps clear up matters.

Regards

CF

I feel a dose of deja vu coming on..

Widger...... You seem to have got several things wrong. Are you an aviation professional? I ask as your profile conveys nothing..

Widger;

If you are going to join in then you need to back up what you say or its just unsubstantiated personal opinion which has no bearing on the issues and therefore need not be said or taken into consideration.

As you have quoted Airprox 198/04 as an example for no RAS being given, care to share with us what happenned then maybe we can answer?

HD

In your 2 submissions on this topic you have said the same thing to 2 different people. Have you nothing constructive to add?

As far as I am aware, LACC Civil controllers have no remit to provide ATC services outside CAS. There is nothing about it in the MATS Part 2 as far as I am aware. Anyway, LACCis an en-route centre not some 2nd rate LARS unit.