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BRISTOL JOBSWORTHS

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BRISTOL JOBSWORTHS

Old 24th Jan 2021, 21:14
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: uk
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Never managed to transit Bristol even before lock down, when the published freq, seems quiet. Always plan to avoid or route Cardiff.
BigEndBob is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2021, 09:25
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: UK
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Many ATC instructors have been training students to say "Remain outside controlled airspace" as the first response to an airspace crossing request, instead of a dynamic assessment of the traffic conditions at the time and an appropriate response. You could almost issue a clearance in the time it takes to say it.
It's a school of defensive parrot style brain dead ATC which is more about arse covering than safety. Safety can be equally achieved without having to say NO to every request.
Personally I am not a fan and I still like to offer the best and most flexible type of service available given the circumstances. Luckily as a licence holder we're still allowed a degree of personal choice within the framework of the rules.

I can only think of a couple of UK units (pre COVID) that have genuine traffic reasons to deny airspace crossings all the time. Everywhere else is just laziness or lack of skills/confidence.
mike current is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2021, 09:45
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
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Well said, Mike.
It's worth quoting the MATS procedure:
"When an aircraft requests permission to enter controlled airspace for the purposes of landing at the associated aerodrome or transiting the airspace, it may not be possible, for traffic reasons, to issue that clearance immediately. In such situations controllers shall advise the pilot to remain outside controlled airspace, when to expect clearance and give a time check"
...which implies at least identifying the aircraft, providing a relevant service initially outside CAS, and informing the pilot of the situation - not an immediate response of "ROCAS."
So where have the instructors (OJTIs) got this idea, if that is correct? Not reading MATS or from NATS?
2 s
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Old 25th Jan 2021, 16:38
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
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Originally Posted by mike current View Post
Many ATC instructors have been training students to say "Remain outside controlled airspace" as the first response to an airspace crossing request, instead of a dynamic assessment of the traffic conditions at the time and an appropriate response. You could almost issue a clearance in the time it takes to say it.
It's a school of defensive parrot style brain dead ATC which is more about arse covering than safety.............. Everywhere else is just laziness or lack of skills/confidence.
This summarises it nicely. At a previous ANSP I worked for, the emphasis was on defensive controlling techniques. Defensive as in "cover your arse for the purposes of a subsequent investigation" as opposed to any emphasis on dealing with the issue that has been presented to you. As long as an ATCO was correct from a legal angle then their actual lack of skills or appreciation of the problem was deemed largely irrelevant. Welcome to the modern world folks!
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Old 25th Jan 2021, 16:48
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Remain outside CAS has been standard in the UK since the 1970s at least, and was introduced because of pilots who believed that the fact that they were talking to the ATC unit believed that they had a right to enter CAS, whether a clearance had been issued or not. This led to as high a number of airspace busts as we have today, and as a defensive measure the phrase was introduced as a barrier. In the old FIR positions, when aircraft requested joining or crossing clearances of airways, a time check was also added, so that if the sector issued a clearance such as 'cross XXX not before TIME' everyone was singing from the same hymn sheet. It is a barrier, just like we use 'after departure' now in amended clearances, rather than 'after take off', because historically aircraft, on hearing an amended clearance phrased in the former manner, lined up without permission. It could be still considered a useful barrier.

HB
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Old 25th Jan 2021, 20:43
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
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Many years ago I had the pleasure of working at BRS. At the time the place had a reputation for being unfriendly to GA, in fact there were regular letters in Pilot magazine singling out the unit for its collective attitude. The reputation was well-deserved, with many of the old hands seeing their job as being to protect the local airspace from traffic, especially ‘tiddlers’, that was not inbound or outbound to the airport. Over time, the old guard retired and new blood, who believed in the concept of providing a service to aircraft, came in - and the poor reputation in the eyes of the GA community was, gradually, redeemed. I have no idea what it’s like there nowadays but it is a shame to see what appears to be a poor reputation developing again.

When I was there, it was a great place to do ATC - a great mix of all sorts of aircraft, the CTR/CTA was not connected to the airways system so there was none of this ‘must keep it inside controlled airspace’ malarkey and, for the most part, it was possible to accommodate many of the more conventional requests that pilots made (although, there are one or two requests that stick in my mind and could not be approved). Since then, much has changed, and significantly perhaps, this includes the operator of the unit.

When I started my basic training I can recall being told, during my first few days, that I was privileged to be joining the National Air Traffic Service and that where ever I worked I would be a part of that service. I guess you might call that the ‘Civil Service’ attitude which has become rather outdated in some respects as the years have passed. I’m not really sure how much that view really reflected reality given that there was a very clear State/Non-State distinction made at every turn but when I got out into the real world, in practise, it did not make much difference whether one spoke to a NATS person or one of the others.

At the turn-of-the-century or thereabouts, however, the NATS part of that national service became NATS Ltd (or one of a number of similarly named limited companies), or as some people called them, business entities, or worse, cost centres. What previously had been ATC units became businesses which, amongst other things, had to focus on what it was required to do (because the contract said so) and not to waste money and other resources on things that might be ‘nice to do’ but were not actually required, and more importantly, that the unit was not being paid for.

Maybe what is seen at BRS today is the logical end result of this change.
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Old 26th Jan 2021, 13:05
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: south of Blue 1
Posts: 58
Spot on. Aviation has grown up and turned into a business. Back in the day we campaigned for 'Public Service, not Private Profit', and the British electorate told us to go away. If I was an ATS Manager at a regional airport, and I walked down the corridor to my Finance and Business Manager and said that I want to staff an ATS service that generated no revenue for the business, once the laughing had stopped, I'd be told to get real. Similarly, my Safety and Compliance Manager would be asking why I am letting VFR GA transits potentially provoke TCAS alerts with our core customers, and their crew reports are automatically forwarded to the SM inbox for investigation. The world has changed.

HB

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Old 26th Jan 2021, 14:35
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
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My personal experience last summer on Bristol transit in my glider was better than the previous years.

Marly_lite, if you asked for a transit and were refused, FCS1522: FCS 1521 (caa.co.uk)

If you feel your safety could have been compromised or might be in similar situation, MOR
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Old 26th Jan 2021, 14:37
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
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Originally Posted by HershamBoys View Post
Remain outside CAS has been standard in the UK since the 1970s at least, and was introduced because of pilots who believed that the fact that they were talking to the ATC unit believed that they had a right to enter CAS, whether a clearance had been issued or not. This led to as high a number of airspace busts as we have today, and as a defensive measure the phrase was introduced as a barrier. In the old FIR positions, when aircraft requested joining or crossing clearances of airways, a time check was also added, so that if the sector issued a clearance such as 'cross XXX not before TIME' everyone was singing from the same hymn sheet. It is a barrier, just like we use 'after departure' now in amended clearances, rather than 'after take off', because historically aircraft, on hearing an amended clearance phrased in the former manner, lined up without permission. It could be still considered a useful barrier.

HB
Maybe it stems from the few pilots in the UK who have trained in the USA where if you call an ATC unit for transit and they say 'standby' without adding 'remain outside controlled airspace' you can still enter the CTR.
I only ever noticed one ATC unit, Southampton, who would routinely say 'remain outside controlled airspace' even when accepting a radar handover, but that was before I retired just over 11 years ago for low level traffic; if it was about FL60 or higher they would issue a clearance via the SAM
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Old 26th Jan 2021, 15:31
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
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I only ever noticed one ATC unit, Southampton, who would routinely say 'remain outside controlled airspace' even when accepting a radar handover,...
...which makes you wonder - as the transferring controller - does (s)he serioiusly expect me to parrot that to the pilot while changing code and frequency?

2 s
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Old 27th Jan 2021, 09:24
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
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Originally Posted by 2 sheds View Post
...which makes you wonder - as the transferring controller - does (s)he serioiusly expect me to parrot that to the pilot while changing code and frequency?

2 s
If we didn't, they would phone us back and moan about it.
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Old 27th Jan 2021, 10:20
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
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Originally Posted by chevvron View Post
Maybe it stems from the few pilots in the UK who have trained in the USA where if you call an ATC unit for transit and they say 'standby' without adding 'remain outside controlled airspace' you can still enter the CTR.
I only ever noticed one ATC unit, Southampton, who would routinely say 'remain outside controlled airspace' even when accepting a radar handover, but that was before I retired just over 11 years ago for low level traffic; if it was about FL60 or higher they would issue a clearance via the SAM
Not just UK pilots trained in the States, continental light aircraft struggled with the concept too. Luton in the '80s & '90s, remain outside was used regularly, whether a handover or a freecall: at times the airspace was already approaching capacity, no way you'd want someone barging through without being 100% sure you knew what they were doing. Never had a complaint from aircraft or the transferring agency, either: if they grumbled in the cockpit, they kept it to themselves, I imagine. They rarely actually suffered any delay, it was more an insurance against infringement issues, since the airspace constraints meant most clearances were tactical, rather than procedural. Paperwork only triggered if there was a problem, which zone infringements absolutely were, & I imagine, still are.. No idea what the situation is since Farnborough picked up the baton.
alfaman is offline  
Old 27th Jan 2021, 11:44
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by chevvron View Post
If we didn't, they would phone us back and moan about it.
How would they know?
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Old 27th Jan 2021, 13:05
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Cider Country
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There's at least one civil LARS unit in middle of England which routinely says "remain outside controlled airspace" during radar hangovers and pre-notes almost every single time. They do generally accommodate transits though.

My interactions with Bristol are limited but not so long ago I was working a helicopter based just north of Bristol (PlodCopter). I phoned Bristol to pass details when Plod was on the way home, only to be told "they don't normally talk to us." I told the pilot that Bristol didn't want a handover, and he said "yeah, we don't get along."
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Old 28th Jan 2021, 08:19
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
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Originally Posted by SpeedyCreek View Post
during radar hangovers and pre-notes .
I wonder where that is?
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Old 28th Jan 2021, 10:23
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
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Originally Posted by chevvron View Post
radar hangover?
Please excuse autocorrect for knowing me too well.
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Old 31st Jan 2021, 01:49
  #37 (permalink)  
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Great chat guys/gals.

I completely understand the initial "remain clear of controlled airspace" phrase on an initial call. Its effectively a plea to not do anything silly until i have capacity to deal with you...

My only ask is that ATCers give me an actual chance to express a request. I ALWAYS have fuel to go around airspace, but purrlease at least allow me to ASK for a crossing or smillar. I might only want to chamfer the corner off!
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Old 31st Jan 2021, 08:40
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
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Marley Lite
"Remain outside...", I hope, as the standard terminology, but a valid and practical point, not understood by some!
2 s
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Old 31st Jan 2021, 12:39
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
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There was a case many years ago (late '70s I think) of a Navajo departing Gatwick VFR. He was assigned a heading (about 020 deg I think though I may be wrong) to leave the CTR to the north then he was (apparently) forgotten, so after leaving the Gatwick CTR, he entered the Heathrow CTR still on an assigned heading.
Gatwick did not at that time, have their CTR boundary marked on their video maps.
As far as I recall, it was decided that it was the pilot's fault; he should have known where he was and requested clearance to enter the Heathrow CTR.
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Old 31st Jan 2021, 13:06
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
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There was a case many years ago (late '70s I think) of a Navajo departing Gatwick VFR. He was assigned a heading (about 020 deg I think though I may be wrong) to leave the CTR to the north then he was (apparently) forgotten, so after leaving the Gatwick CTR, he entered the Heathrow CTR still on an assigned heading.
Gatwick did not at that time, have their CTR boundary marked on their video maps.
As far as I recall, it was decided that it was the pilot's fault; he should have known where he was and requested clearance to enter the Heathrow CTR.
And the point is...? "ROCAS" should never be required?

2 s
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