Annoying habits
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Also, it's not gliders you need to worry about, it's pointy grey things spewing fire out of the back, Falcon 20's, A330 Tankers and anyone playing games in and around Spadeadam EWTR.
Last edited by The Fat Controller; 29th Sep 2019 at 17:01.
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This route has also been removed from the available routes to file. It has been a contributory factor in sector overloads in the TMA. From an ATC perspective the best thing the airlines who want to fly this way could do is put pressure on the powers that be to get suitable controlled airspace in there.
It is only a matter of time before one of you has a very close one,or worse,out there. I don’t say that lightly.
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"The other issue here is that the CAA in their wisdom have approved non transponding gliders all the way up to 195. We simply can’t see them if they are orbiting as the radar filters them out thinking it is weather due to the low ground speed."
2. Even those gliders that are transponder equipped are probably breaking the law if they use them. Class 2 transponders (130 W) are approved for use up to only FL150 - above that Class 1 transponders (250 W) are required. I doubt that many/any UK gliders have Class 1 transponders due to battery limitations.
3. The non-transponding gliders above FL100 are only present in "notified Non-SSR Transponder Glider Areas" day VFR. When areas are not notified then non-transponding gliders will not be there. Notification by NOTAM is typically >18 hours in advance.
4. The emotive wording "the CAA in their wisdom" does not reflect the reality that the previous freedom to fly without transponders in Class G airspace has been progressively removed and that above FL100 is now possible in clearly defined areas and the further restriction of prior notification has been imposed only in the last couple of years.
5. Current CAA policy seems to be that gliders will soon need transponders below FL100 in most circumstances.
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1. At those levels they are unlikely to be orbiting (as in thermalling), more probably in wave where their airspeed almost matches the windspeed so are almost stationary.
2. Even those gliders that are transponder equipped are probably breaking the law if they use them. Class 2 transponders (130 W) are approved for use up to only FL150 - above that Class 1 transponders (250 W) are required. I doubt that many/any UK gliders have Class 1 transponders due to battery limitations.
3. The non-transponding gliders above FL100 are only present in "notified Non-SSR Transponder Glider Areas" day VFR. When areas are not notified then non-transponding gliders will not be there. Notification by NOTAM is typically >18 hours in advance.
4. The emotive wording "the CAA in their wisdom" does not reflect the reality that the previous freedom to fly without transponders in Class G airspace has been progressively removed and that above FL100 is now possible in clearly defined areas and the further restriction of prior notification has been imposed only in the last couple of years.
5. Current CAA policy seems to be that gliders will soon need transponders below FL100 in most circumstances.
2. Even those gliders that are transponder equipped are probably breaking the law if they use them. Class 2 transponders (130 W) are approved for use up to only FL150 - above that Class 1 transponders (250 W) are required. I doubt that many/any UK gliders have Class 1 transponders due to battery limitations.
3. The non-transponding gliders above FL100 are only present in "notified Non-SSR Transponder Glider Areas" day VFR. When areas are not notified then non-transponding gliders will not be there. Notification by NOTAM is typically >18 hours in advance.
4. The emotive wording "the CAA in their wisdom" does not reflect the reality that the previous freedom to fly without transponders in Class G airspace has been progressively removed and that above FL100 is now possible in clearly defined areas and the further restriction of prior notification has been imposed only in the last couple of years.
5. Current CAA policy seems to be that gliders will soon need transponders below FL100 in most circumstances.
Thanks for the info Jim. Well aware of the NOTAMs authorising this. I have no problems with the gliders being there at all, they are entitled to be. Transponders are always welcome and are a huge boost to safety. My issue is not with the gliders or their pilots.
My issues in that area are firstly quite a lot of traffic wants to route in and out of PH via SAB,especially arrivals for 24, some appropriate airspace would be nice. Secondly, as I’ve alluded to earlier,I suspect quite a lot of commercial pilots are unaware of their responsibilities under UKFIS and also that they immediately drop down my list of priorities if they choose to leave controlled airspace. Gliders are far from the only operators in that bit of airspace, the military play there a lot too. They tend to have transponders though.
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Asking for a slot ready message on GMC.
"Good news, slot has came forward, are you ready for push and start?"
"Oh, umm.... we just need to find a tug crew... we'll be about 10 minutes..."
This does not constitute 'ready'!
"Good news, slot has came forward, are you ready for push and start?"
"Oh, umm.... we just need to find a tug crew... we'll be about 10 minutes..."
This does not constitute 'ready'!
This is somewhat of a problem as well for flight crews. Most airports do not own enough push back tractors to have one wait at all the aircraft with a bad slot. It is fairly common to have a truck at the nose wheel at STD that will wait a little while only to disappear a few seconds after the crew has called in ready and the message has been sent. There are other slotless flights in need of a push as well after all.
So if the slot then happens to improve, the search for the next available tug begins.
This is not the crews or the controllers fault; it is rather a systemic issue. The only way out of this (besides buying a truckload of pushback trucks) would be to push all the slotted aircraft clear of their nose-in position into a self-maneuvering stand where they can sit until their slot comes up; what such a system would do to airport operations is up to anyone to guess.
So if the slot then happens to improve, the search for the next available tug begins.
This is not the crews or the controllers fault; it is rather a systemic issue. The only way out of this (besides buying a truckload of pushback trucks) would be to push all the slotted aircraft clear of their nose-in position into a self-maneuvering stand where they can sit until their slot comes up; what such a system would do to airport operations is up to anyone to guess.
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This is not the crews or the controllers fault; it is rather a systemic issue. The only way out of this (besides buying a truckload of pushback trucks) would be to push all the slotted aircraft clear of their nose-in position into a self-maneuvering stand where they can sit until their slot comes up; what such a system would do to airport operations is up to anyone to guess.
Some years ago at Leeds Bradford I overheard an exchange between ATC and the crew of a Spanair A320. The latter had requested a ready message, even though the aircraft still had forward steps attached and baggage was still being loaded. These factors were obvious to ATC and the TWR controller refused to send the ready message, and pointed out to the Spanair crew that declaring readiness when evidently not ready defeated the object of sending such a message !
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Some years ago at Leeds Bradford I overheard an exchange between ATC and the crew of a Spanair A320. The latter had requested a ready message, even though the aircraft still had forward steps attached and baggage was still being loaded. These factors were obvious to ATC and the TWR controller refused to send the ready message, and pointed out to the Spanair crew that declaring readiness when evidently not ready defeated the object of sending such a message !
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1. ignoring speed instructions given many minutes and miles before any TOD, margins are tight these days. Min separation is 5nm and we might have you at 6nm, there is little room for error and a heading is pretty useless when that close.
2. issuing a descend NOW instruction, having it read back and then choosing to descend when you feel like it. The word 'NOW' is none standard RT but has become common practice as otherwise a descent instruction is replied with 'when ready'. I would have said WR if it was appropriate.
3. not listening on the freq when dialling in for the first time before transmitting.
4. not listening in general and when eventually found, denying you've ever been on the freq despite me issuing clearances you've complied with.
5. requesting descent/climb and when denied due traffic, stating you have it on TCAS...…………….erm!!
never a dull day in ATC, its a shame the days of chatter and a bit of banter are dying out due volumes of traffic.
2. issuing a descend NOW instruction, having it read back and then choosing to descend when you feel like it. The word 'NOW' is none standard RT but has become common practice as otherwise a descent instruction is replied with 'when ready'. I would have said WR if it was appropriate.
3. not listening on the freq when dialling in for the first time before transmitting.
4. not listening in general and when eventually found, denying you've ever been on the freq despite me issuing clearances you've complied with.
5. requesting descent/climb and when denied due traffic, stating you have it on TCAS...…………….erm!!
never a dull day in ATC, its a shame the days of chatter and a bit of banter are dying out due volumes of traffic.
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6. PAN PAN PAN - sick passenger but we will carry on for several hundred miiles yet. The PAN raises workload, heart rate and causes a distraction to train of thought.
London, ABC123 we have a medical situation on board that requires priority at our destination and then PAN PAN PAN, would be appreciated.
Save the heart stopping moment for the real PAN/MAYDAY.
London, ABC123 we have a medical situation on board that requires priority at our destination and then PAN PAN PAN, would be appreciated.
Save the heart stopping moment for the real PAN/MAYDAY.
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[QUOTE=FZRA;10581318]What an interesting thread....and hopefully a chance to ask some honest questions that quite often crop up on the line.
- Re. speed control. How rapidly are you expecting us to decelerate? The aircraft I fly is USELESS at slowing down with any greater than 1500ft/min VS, even with max spoilers. Quite often the only way to decelerate is to "dive down" to the next assigned level then rely on the speed coming back once level. Or kill the VS to <500ft/min to get rid of energy, then increase the VS again. I presume that you see our actual IAS on Mode-S, as opposed to selected IAS?
Yes, at least at my airport unit, our Mode S shows actual IAS as well as groundspeed (which is handy for getting a feel for the upper winds)... and it feels like crews have stopped lying about their speed now, as it's displayed to us in real time!!! (The only 'selected' parameter normally displayed is Selected Flight Level (or altitude), which is both useful and reassuring).
Very interesting thread... presumably some pilots could start a similar one about us ATCOs and our annoying habits...? Over the years we've had some superb feedback regarding (often) fairly simple things, of which we were unaware, but which can make a big improvement in flight deck workload or SA.
- Re. speed control. How rapidly are you expecting us to decelerate? The aircraft I fly is USELESS at slowing down with any greater than 1500ft/min VS, even with max spoilers. Quite often the only way to decelerate is to "dive down" to the next assigned level then rely on the speed coming back once level. Or kill the VS to <500ft/min to get rid of energy, then increase the VS again. I presume that you see our actual IAS on Mode-S, as opposed to selected IAS?
Yes, at least at my airport unit, our Mode S shows actual IAS as well as groundspeed (which is handy for getting a feel for the upper winds)... and it feels like crews have stopped lying about their speed now, as it's displayed to us in real time!!! (The only 'selected' parameter normally displayed is Selected Flight Level (or altitude), which is both useful and reassuring).
Very interesting thread... presumably some pilots could start a similar one about us ATCOs and our annoying habits...? Over the years we've had some superb feedback regarding (often) fairly simple things, of which we were unaware, but which can make a big improvement in flight deck workload or SA.
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2. issuing a descend NOW instruction, having it read back and then choosing to descend when you feel like it. The word 'NOW' is none standard RT but has become common practice as otherwise a descent instruction is replied with 'when ready'. I would have said WR if it was appropriate.
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6. PAN PAN PAN - sick passenger but we will carry on for several hundred miiles yet. The PAN raises workload, heart rate and causes a distraction to train of thought.
London, ABC123 we have a medical situation on board that requires priority at our destination and then PAN PAN PAN, would be appreciated.
Save the heart stopping moment for the real PAN/MAYDAY.
London, ABC123 we have a medical situation on board that requires priority at our destination and then PAN PAN PAN, would be appreciated.
Save the heart stopping moment for the real PAN/MAYDAY.
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This is somewhat of a problem as well for flight crews. Most airports do not own enough push back tractors to have one wait at all the aircraft with a bad slot. It is fairly common to have a truck at the nose wheel at STD that will wait a little while only to disappear a few seconds after the crew has called in ready and the message has been sent. There are other slotless flights in need of a push as well after all.
So if the slot then happens to improve, the search for the next available tug begins.
This is not the crews or the controllers fault; it is rather a systemic issue. The only way out of this (besides buying a truckload of pushback trucks) would be to push all the slotted aircraft clear of their nose-in position into a self-maneuvering stand where they can sit until their slot comes up; what such a system would do to airport operations is up to anyone to guess.
So if the slot then happens to improve, the search for the next available tug begins.
This is not the crews or the controllers fault; it is rather a systemic issue. The only way out of this (besides buying a truckload of pushback trucks) would be to push all the slotted aircraft clear of their nose-in position into a self-maneuvering stand where they can sit until their slot comes up; what such a system would do to airport operations is up to anyone to guess.
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<Rant>
- Ignoring speed instructions (happens way more frequently then it should).
- Lying about ignoring speed instructions. We have Mode S so can see what you're doing. If you can't make a descent restriction work with an assigned speed just tell me and I'll change the plan.
- Announcing on the RT that you're logged on to CPDLC. Doing so literally defeats the point of the system.
- Telling me that you've started descent.
This just about covers my bugbears, I'll also add...
5. Penny-pinching airlines that STILL haven't equipped their state-of-the-art jets with (or maybe it's just they haven't trained their pilots to use?) CPDLC. In some instances I can do double the controlling in half the time if everybody on frequency has it. Embrace it, Ryanair... it's the future!
LTP
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Interesting thread this, some good points and tips.
I have a burning question for ATC, something that I have wondered for years....
When a pilot checks in with tower on approach, what is the correct call? I hear all sorts of calls..
“Tower, ABC with you fully established, 8 miles ILS 05”
”ABC ILS 6 miles”
”Tower ABC with you on the ILS”
Personally I use “Tower Hello ABC”
Could someone please let me know what the correct initial call to tower should be?
I have a burning question for ATC, something that I have wondered for years....
When a pilot checks in with tower on approach, what is the correct call? I hear all sorts of calls..
“Tower, ABC with you fully established, 8 miles ILS 05”
”ABC ILS 6 miles”
”Tower ABC with you on the ILS”
Personally I use “Tower Hello ABC”
Could someone please let me know what the correct initial call to tower should be?
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GLP, a pilot myself but according to CAP413 Chapter 6, page 5 the correct call is: “Kennington Tower, Bigjet 347”
Thank you for asking this question as I have been doing it wrong for the last 20 years.
I have been using “Tower, ABC ILS26, 5 miles”, unless otherwise instructed. I will change that to align with Cap413.
Thank you for asking this question as I have been doing it wrong for the last 20 years.
I have been using “Tower, ABC ILS26, 5 miles”, unless otherwise instructed. I will change that to align with Cap413.
Final Director: "ABC123 callsign only to tower XXX.XXX"
Initial Call to Tower:
"XXXX Tower, ABC123X a Whizzjet Max-9000 series with information Juliet with you established on the LLZ shortly descending on the glide 9.3 miles final runway 26L"
DEF456 goes around
Tower
tersely: "ABC123X continue"
When a busy runway is well utilised there can be just a few seconds windows for some calls to be made - miss your window, miss your opportunity. Callsign only* really can help controllers to hit that window of opportunity when required. If they want more information than you've given they can easily ask at a more appropriate time.
*even smaller units don't appreciate a life-story when they would prefer to be giving the urgent avoiding action or missed approach instructions
Initial Call to Tower:
"XXXX Tower, ABC123X a Whizzjet Max-9000 series with information Juliet with you established on the LLZ shortly descending on the glide 9.3 miles final runway 26L"
DEF456 goes around
Tower
tersely: "ABC123X continue"When a busy runway is well utilised there can be just a few seconds windows for some calls to be made - miss your window, miss your opportunity. Callsign only* really can help controllers to hit that window of opportunity when required. If they want more information than you've given they can easily ask at a more appropriate time.
*even smaller units don't appreciate a life-story when they would prefer to be giving the urgent avoiding action or missed approach instructions