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Old 7th Jan 2020, 06:19
  #121 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: T.C.
Age: 52
Posts: 232
[QUOTE=chevvron;10653800]Why? I wasn't exceptional. Well there is a bubble burst, reading your posts Chevron I thought you were the dogs [email protected]@ks, and Farnborough went down the toilet when you left, and as for the general state of Air traffic, well that has never recovered from your departure!!!!

Always a sad day when your heroes fail you.
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Old 7th Jan 2020, 12:22
  #122 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: River Thames & Surrey
Age: 71
Posts: 8,581
[QUOTE=Nimmer;10655642]
Originally Posted by chevvron View Post
Why? I wasn't exceptional. Well there is a bubble burst, reading your posts Chevron I thought you were the dogs [email protected]@ks, and Farnborough went down the toilet when you left, and as for the general state of Air traffic, well that has never recovered from your departure!!!!

Always a sad day when your heroes fail you.
I must admit I was always prepared to 'bend' the rules at times in order to provide a better service to pilots eg suggesting to single engine pilots crossing to Le Touquet they stay with me on LARS East frequency (so that if their engine went, I could pinpoint their position to D & D) which was officially outside my area of operation. My flying experience in many types from gliders and microlights, through light aircraft and helicopters to fast jets (which controllers nowadays rarely have) helped me to determine when this might be useful to pilots and if anybody queried what I did I could always invoke MATS Pt 1 Section 1 Chapter 1 para 1.2 second sentence.
Local assessors nowadays tend to frown on this type of discretion and initiative so it rarely occurs.

Last edited by chevvron; 9th Jan 2020 at 14:34.
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Old 9th Jan 2020, 18:01
  #123 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: far far away
Posts: 48
Snag is, ATC is now so risk averse that anything that isn't written down and published as a procedure leaves one wide open to subsequent disciplinary actions - doing something with the best of intentions is no longer enough to make it ok when it goes even slightly wrong. As for controllers with aircraft experience, that has also largely faded away from what I can see. More and more controllers are now coming into the industry, not because they have a love of aviation, but simply because they are attracted by the salary and potential lifestyle. It is rare now for controllers to have flying experience behind them, I have seen ab-initios who literally don't know what the difference is in a Cherokee and an Aztec - no appreciation in the difference of performance, no idea if fixed gear or retractable etc. Couple this with a sense of entitlement for someone who as never been told in their lifetime that they can actually fail and there can be issues. But in balance I suppose it would be a boring world if we were all the same.
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Old 9th Jan 2020, 21:41
  #124 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: jersey
Age: 70
Posts: 1,203
Originally Posted by escaped.atco View Post
Snag is, ATC is now so risk averse that anything that isn't written down and published as a procedure leaves one wide open to subsequent disciplinary actions - doing something with the best of intentions is no longer enough to make it ok when it goes even slightly wrong. As for controllers with aircraft experience, that has also largely faded away from what I can see. More and more controllers are now coming into the industry, not because they have a love of aviation, but simply because they are attracted by the salary and potential lifestyle. It is rare now for controllers to have flying experience behind them, I have seen ab-initios who literally don't know what the difference is in a Cherokee and an Aztec - no appreciation in the difference of performance, no idea if fixed gear or retractable etc. Couple this with a sense of entitlement for someone who as never been told in their lifetime that they can actually fail and there can be issues. But in balance I suppose it would be a boring world if we were all the same.
Boring, perhaps; but judging from your assessment of modern entrants, more professional & more sympathetic too?
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Old 10th Jan 2020, 19:57
  #125 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: far far away
Posts: 48
Originally Posted by kcockayne View Post
Boring, perhaps; but judging from your assessment of modern entrants, more professional & more sympathetic too?
As I've inferred before, there's always a danger that we older controllers think the younger generation have it easier and are not as good. I'm very conscious of the fact that different generations have different attitudes and priorities. All I can say is that when I was coming through the system, the vast majority of my colleagues had at the very least a keen interest in all things aviation. A lot had flying experience and had perhaps worked with and around aircraft in one form or another - that seems to have gone. My personal opinion is that is easier to train someone who really wants to be there, someone who has an aviation interest and someone who is a well rounded individual. Not saying that doesn't happen anymore, just maybe not as much. Harsh? Maybe, but just my opinion and experience. I don't know what the latest recruitment requirements are but an initial aviation knowledge obviously isn't a prerequisite.
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Old 10th Jan 2020, 20:14
  #126 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: jersey
Age: 70
Posts: 1,203
I canít say that I disagree with any of that. I would not discount anyone who doesnít have an aviation interest/background ; but I do think that the system should be built around a nucleus of aviation enthusiasts ie capable aviation enthusiasts. Without judging the different generations, my Cadet course comprised 24 ex ATCAS - only one of whom failed. In my opinion, all except that one individual had that motivation occasioned by experience in ATC & enthusiasm for the job. It was this that helped make them good controllers. That is not to say that anyone without that sort of motivation cannot be as good !
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Old 11th Jan 2020, 05:49
  #127 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: River Thames & Surrey
Age: 71
Posts: 8,581
We started as 23 ATCO Cadets and 16 graduated 3 years later; one dropped out at the end of the 4 week initial course; didn't even do his PPL course; he was a non state ex ATCA; the rest of the intake were half and half ex ATCAs and direct entrants and about the same ratio graduated.
But we were all 'aircraft enthusiasts' to some level.
Having said that, on our 'sim' course in year 3, we were divided into crews of 3 (it was a Trident sim and the 'normal' flight deck crew of a Trident was 3) and although I enjoyed every minute, the other 2 in my crew made it plain they both thought it was a waste of time; they were to be professional controllers not professsional pilots.
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Old 11th Jan 2020, 08:37
  #128 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Scotland
Posts: 7
Watch Manager EGLL on the NATS site

Looks like direct entry Watch Manager position on the NATS recruitment site. Does this mean no internal candidates!!!
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Old 11th Jan 2020, 08:47
  #129 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: jersey
Age: 70
Posts: 1,203
Funnily enough, I was one of those who did not particularly enjoy the Trident course. Not because I thought of myself as a controller & not a pilot : but because the whole thing was too much of a "push button" & automated experience; not "real" flying. Betrayed my attitude towards computers - even then ! I well remember our instructor (an ex WW2 pilot - type who crawled out on the wing to extinguish a fire), asking me if I was a slow learner. He had a point, I had no interest in the "automated" cockpit. But, back to the "qualities" of ATCOS; my point is that a love of aviation got a lot of us through the training & encouraged us to think outside the strictures of "the loop" when it came to controlling. When we retired, we were missed in my local environment. Several "old school" pilots said as much to our faces. It was gratifying to have had our efforts recognised in that manner !
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Old 11th Jan 2020, 14:40
  #130 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: River Thames & Surrey
Age: 71
Posts: 8,581
Originally Posted by kcockayne View Post
When we retired, we were missed in my local environment. Several "old school" pilots said as much to our faces. It was gratifying to have had our efforts recognised in that manner !
When it was announced I was retiring, at least 2 professional pilots expressed their appreciation of my work, one of them being chief Test Pilot at WHL.
After I retired from Farnborough, I lasted about 2 weeks before getting bored and starting work as a FISO at Fairoaks; this caused great confusion amongst locally based pilots who kept thinking they had selected the wrong frequency when my voice came up on the Fairoaks frequency. I was still getting queries about 2 years later 'didn't you used to be at Farnborough'?
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Old 13th Jan 2020, 00:15
  #131 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: N/A
Posts: 47
Originally Posted by chevvron View Post
I was still getting queries about 2 years later 'didn't you used to be at Farnborough'?
Theres certainly no way anyone that has even heard or PPRuNe would not know you used to work at Farnborough. My cat even knows you used to work at Farnborough.
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Old 17th Jan 2020, 09:12
  #132 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: On a foreign shore trying a new wine diet. So far, I've lost 3days!
Age: 71
Posts: 395
I see NATS are advertising for experienced approach and tower controllers for Hong Kong. Unfortunately there is no mention of salary and allowances. Anyone care to shed some light?
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Old 20th Jan 2020, 20:03
  #133 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: UK
Posts: 22
NCL looking again
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Old 20th Jan 2020, 22:18
  #134 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 8
Newcastle jobs

Job (s) going at Newcastle again. Wonít let me post the link, details on job train.
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Old 21st Jan 2020, 06:20
  #135 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Dubai and Sunderland
Posts: 762
Lots of jobs at NCL - Seven ATCO's just resigned! Tread carefully!
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Old 21st Jan 2020, 07:35
  #136 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Around
Posts: 316
Originally Posted by frilsy View Post
Job (s) going at Newcastle again. Wonít let me post the link, details on job train.
From the ad:
Salary: £Competetive
And yet people are apparently flooding out the door! How strange. Is there something else at play here, or is there a reason they are being so coy about the salary?
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Old 21st Jan 2020, 17:45
  #137 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 8
Originally Posted by 10 DME ARC View Post
Lots of jobs at NCL - Seven ATCO's just resigned! Tread carefully!
*8 lost in 6 months I believe (though some retirement.) 1/3ish of the workforce. Thatís got to hurt....
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Old 21st Jan 2020, 18:03
  #138 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: on the border line
Posts: 171
Ouch..considering it takes up to 5 months..inc.notice and training to validate positions? Could be an interesting summer?
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Old 21st Jan 2020, 18:06
  #139 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Bournemouth
Posts: 2
Hello guys,
Anybody know how can apply for Swanwick Area Control Centre?
I have previously experience as an ATC about 3 years abroad but my license is not valid anymore
I am in Bournemouth, close to Area Control Centre.Maybe to have some appointments??

Thank You
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Old 21st Jan 2020, 22:59
  #140 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: somerset
Posts: 118
NCL

Hi,
does anyone at Newcastle have information on what the story is there and what they are offering? Thanks in advance for any PMís
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