Minimum separation Departing from Landing traffic

[C.M]

What can be the absolute minimum separation between a departing traffic and a landing ( between typical medium sized airlines ) and how this minimum separation can be achieved ? ( equipment / Procedure-wise )

[mike current]

Originally Posted by C.M

What can be the absolute minimum separation between a departing traffic and a landing ( between typical medium sized airlines ) and how this minimum separation can be achieved ? ( equipment / Procedure-wise )

The runway between the threshold and the point where the departing aircraft rotates...

Eyeball, late landing clearance, immediate takeoff and switched on pilots.

[C.M]

Originally Posted by mike current

The runway between the threshold and the point where the departing aircraft rotates...

Eyeball, late landing clearance, immediate takeoff and switched on pilots.

so you are saying there is nothing really concrete defined by equipment and or procedures...

[chevvron]

Not quite the same situation but I was on the flight deck of a Herald landing on 27L at Heathrow. At about 1nm final, we heard a Trident report outer marker; as we touched down, he reported 2nm; was told 'continue, expect late landing clearance'; as we started to vacate he said 'I'm on the deck' and the controller said 'cleared to land'.

[Gonzo]

C.M., what country are you in, or referring to?

Most states adapt without modification the provisions in ICAO Doc 4444.

7.10 CONTROL OF ARRIVING AIRCRAFT
7.10.1 Separation of landing aircraft and preceding landing and departing aircraft using the same runway
Except as provided in 7.11 and Chapter 5, Section 5.8, a landing aircraft will not normally be permitted to cross the runway threshold on its final approach until the preceding departing aircraft has crossed the end of the runway-in-use, or has started a turn, or until all preceding landing aircraft are clear of the runway-in-use.
Note 1.— See Figure 7-3.
Note 2.— Wake turbulence categories of aircraft and longitudinal separation minima are contained in Chapter 4, Section 4.9 and Chapter 5, Section 5.8, respectively.
Note 3.— See 7.6.3.1.2.2.
7.10.2 Clearance to land
An aircraft may be cleared to land when there is reasonable assurance that the separation in 7.10.1, or prescribed in accordance with 7.11 will exist when the aircraft crosses the runway threshold, provided that a clearance to land shall not be issued until a preceding landing aircraft has crossed the runway threshold. To reduce the potential for misunderstanding, the landing clearance shall include the designator of the landing runway.

[Gonzo]

C.M., in the UK we can clear an aircraft to land (or take-off) as soon as the departure ahead has rotated (notwithstanding other separation requirements). This is not generally true of other states.

[Talkdownman]

Originally Posted by Gonzo

in the UK we can clear an aircraft to land (or take-off) as soon as the departure ahead has rotated

...which is a method of maximising runway utilisation to satisfy commercial pressures.

[C.M]

Originally Posted by Talkdownman

...which is a method of maximising runway utilisation to satisfy commercial pressures.

As long as risks are not involved (which I don’t think that is the case) that’s the whole idea isn’t it ? And that’s the whole point of me asking , that’s is to verify how a runway can be utilized fully

[10W]

Just don’t go too tight or the AAIB might come calling

https://stv.tv/news/east-central/143...bus-on-runway/

https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aaib...320-214-oe-ivc

[Gonzo]

And of course with the proposed Part.ATS from EASA, the Acceptable Means of Compliance is taken straight from ICAO, so it will be interesting to see what UK CAA does in terms of changing MATS Part 1 or developing ALTMOCs.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I don't even know what an ALTMOC is. The place has gone bananas.

[Talkdownman]

Originally Posted by 10W

Just don’t go too tight or the AAIB might come calling

https://stv.tv/news/east-central/143...bus-on-runway/

https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aaib...320-214-oe-ivc

Looks like EGLL routine 09R SRO ops to me!

Originally Posted by HEATHROW DIRECTOR

The place has gone bananas.

I concur...

[Gonzo]

Originally Posted by HEATHROW DIRECTOR

I don't even know what an ALTMOC is. The place has gone bananas.

EASA regs are on three levels.

1) The rule itself.

2) AMC which is Acceptable Means of Compliance

3) GM which is Guidance Material.

Basically, in this case, off the top of my head, the rule (i.e. European Law) will say something like 'Runway operations will be provided with the appropriate separation'.

The AMC is EASA's view on how you comply with that rule, in this case it's a cut and paste job from ICAO 4444 about runway ups, so the first departure has to be in the turn or have crossed the end of the runway, before you can clear the next departure for take off or next arrival for landing.

If UK CAA wants to continue to do something else, it needs to provide to EASA am Alternative means of Compliance (ALTMOC) to demonstrate that it is providing the same, or better, level of safety than if it complied with the AMC.

[mike current]

Gonzo don't let an informed view get in the way of people thinking it's all gone mad and it was much better in the old days...