Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Ground & Other Ops Forums > ATC Issues
Reload this Page >

Minimum separation Departing from Landing traffic

ATC Issues A place where pilots may enter the 'lions den' that is Air Traffic Control in complete safety and find out the answers to all those obscure topics which you always wanted to know the answer to but were afraid to ask.

Minimum separation Departing from Landing traffic

Old 9th May 2019, 07:38
  #1 (permalink)  
C.M
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: international
Posts: 91
Minimum separation Departing from Landing traffic

What can be the absolute minimum separation between a departing traffic and a landing ( between typical medium sized airlines ) and how this minimum separation can be achieved ? ( equipment / Procedure-wise )
C.M is offline  
Old 9th May 2019, 08:36
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 22
Originally Posted by C.M View Post
What can be the absolute minimum separation between a departing traffic and a landing ( between typical medium sized airlines ) and how this minimum separation can be achieved ? ( equipment / Procedure-wise )
The runway between the threshold and the point where the departing aircraft rotates...

Eyeball, late landing clearance, immediate takeoff and switched on pilots.
mike current is offline  
Old 9th May 2019, 10:19
  #3 (permalink)  
C.M
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: international
Posts: 91
Originally Posted by mike current View Post
The runway between the threshold and the point where the departing aircraft rotates...

Eyeball, late landing clearance, immediate takeoff and switched on pilots.
so you are saying there is nothing really concrete defined by equipment and or procedures...
C.M is offline  
Old 9th May 2019, 11:38
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: River Thames & Surrey
Age: 70
Posts: 7,987
Not quite the same situation but I was on the flight deck of a Herald landing on 27L at Heathrow. At about 1nm final, we heard a Trident report outer marker; as we touched down, he reported 2nm; was told 'continue, expect late landing clearance'; as we started to vacate he said 'I'm on the deck' and the controller said 'cleared to land'.
chevvron is offline  
Old 9th May 2019, 12:26
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: LHR/EGLL
Age: 40
Posts: 4,284
C.M., what country are you in, or referring to?

Most states adapt without modification the provisions in ICAO Doc 4444.

7.10 CONTROL OF ARRIVING AIRCRAFT
7.10.1 Separation of landing aircraft and preceding landing and departing aircraft using the same runway
Except as provided in 7.11 and Chapter 5, Section 5.8, a landing aircraft will not normally be permitted to cross the runway threshold on its final approach until the preceding departing aircraft has crossed the end of the runway-in-use, or has started a turn, or until all preceding landing aircraft are clear of the runway-in-use.
Note 1.ó See Figure 7-3.
Note 2.ó Wake turbulence categories of aircraft and longitudinal separation minima are contained in Chapter 4, Section 4.9 and Chapter 5, Section 5.8, respectively.
Note 3.ó See 7.6.3.1.2.2.
7.10.2 Clearance to land
An aircraft may be cleared to land when there is reasonable assurance that the separation in 7.10.1, or prescribed in accordance with 7.11 will exist when the aircraft crosses the runway threshold, provided that a clearance to land shall not be issued until a preceding landing aircraft has crossed the runway threshold. To reduce the potential for misunderstanding, the landing clearance shall include the designator of the landing runway.
Gonzo is offline  
Old 9th May 2019, 12:29
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: LHR/EGLL
Age: 40
Posts: 4,284
C.M., in the UK we can clear an aircraft to land (or take-off) as soon as the departure ahead has rotated (notwithstanding other separation requirements). This is not generally true of other states.
Gonzo is offline  
Old 9th May 2019, 18:19
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: On the wireless...
Posts: 1,858
Originally Posted by Gonzo View Post
in the UK we can clear an aircraft to land (or take-off) as soon as the departure ahead has rotated
...which is a method of maximising runway utilisation to satisfy commercial pressures.
Talkdownman is offline  
Old 10th May 2019, 05:10
  #8 (permalink)  
C.M
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: international
Posts: 91
Originally Posted by Talkdownman View Post
...which is a method of maximising runway utilisation to satisfy commercial pressures.
As long as risks are not involved (which I donít think that is the case) thatís the whole idea isnít it ? And thatís the whole point of me asking , thatís is to verify how a runway can be utilized fully
C.M is offline  
Old 10th May 2019, 08:52
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Wherever someone will pay me to do fun stuff
Posts: 1,031
As long as risks are not involved,,,
Of course there are risks involved - there are risks involved in everything we do. The question is whether those risks are properly understood and are always managed to ensure that the level of risk is acceptable - a;though how one assesses it and what that level may be in relation to maximising runway utilisation for each party involved is another debate.
LookingForAJob is offline  
Old 2nd Jun 2019, 09:59
  #10 (permalink)  
10W

PPRuNe Bashaholic
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 1997
Location: The Peoples Alcoholic Republic of Jockistan
Posts: 1,439
10W is offline  
Old 2nd Jun 2019, 10:45
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: LHR/EGLL
Age: 40
Posts: 4,284
And of course with the proposed Part.ATS from EASA, the Acceptable Means of Compliance is taken straight from ICAO, so it will be interesting to see what UK CAA does in terms of changing MATS Part 1 or developing ALTMOCs.
Gonzo is offline  
Old 2nd Jun 2019, 11:38
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 74
Posts: 8,263
I don't even know what an ALTMOC is. The place has gone bananas.
HEATHROW DIRECTOR is offline  
Old 2nd Jun 2019, 12:23
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: On the wireless...
Posts: 1,858
Originally Posted by 10W View Post
Looks like EGLL routine 09R SRO ops to me!

Originally Posted by HEATHROW DIRECTOR View Post
The place has gone bananas.
I concur...
Talkdownman is offline  
Old 2nd Jun 2019, 13:52
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: LHR/EGLL
Age: 40
Posts: 4,284
Originally Posted by HEATHROW DIRECTOR View Post
I don't even know what an ALTMOC is. The place has gone bananas.
EASA regs are on three levels.

1) The rule itself.

2) AMC which is Acceptable Means of Compliance

3) GM which is Guidance Material.

Basically, in this case, off the top of my head, the rule (i.e. European Law) will say something like 'Runway operations will be provided with the appropriate separation'.

The AMC is EASA's view on how you comply with that rule, in this case it's a cut and paste job from ICAO 4444 about runway ups, so the first departure has to be in the turn or have crossed the end of the runway, before you can clear the next departure for take off or next arrival for landing.

If UK CAA wants to continue to do something else, it needs to provide to EASA am Alternative means of Compliance (ALTMOC) to demonstrate that it is providing the same, or better, level of safety than if it complied with the AMC.

Last edited by Gonzo; 2nd Jun 2019 at 14:10.
Gonzo is offline  
Old 3rd Jun 2019, 06:25
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 22
Gonzo don't let an informed view get in the way of people thinking it's all gone mad and it was much better in the old days...
mike current is offline  
Old 3rd Jun 2019, 06:42
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Wherever someone will pay me to do fun stuff
Posts: 1,031
Originally Posted by mike current View Post
Gonzo don't let an informed view get in the way of people thinking it's all gone mad and it was much better in the old days...
+1 (I'd do more but the voices told me not to)
LookingForAJob is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.