Comms on T9,T213,T16

[Stanley Eevil]

Believe it or not, ab-initio ATPL groundschool students that I teach are now being quizzed on the expected ATC comms when flying the `3 Sisters` routes in the SE corner of the Shanwick OCA.
I have flown many NAT flights myself as captain, but never these 3 particular routes - so would appreciate it if anyone can help my students:
On T9 and T213 you are clearly exclusively in the Shanwick OCA, but will comms be with Shanwick on VHF or HF?
T16 will begin with Shanwick but will later go into the Santa Maria OCA; same question really: HF or VHF comms?
Many thanks in advance!

[kcockayne]

Originally Posted by Stanley Eevil

Believe it or not, ab-initio ATPL groundschool students that I teach are now being quizzed on the expected ATC comms when flying the `3 Sisters` routes in the SE corner of the Shanwick OCA.
I have flown many NAT flights myself as captain, but never these 3 particular routes - so would appreciate it if anyone can help my students:
On T9 and T213 you are clearly exclusively in the Shanwick OCA, but will comms be with Shanwick on VHF or HF?
T16 will begin with Shanwick but will later go into the Santa Maria OCA; same question really: HF or VHF comms?
Many thanks in advance!

It’s a long time since I was at Shanwick - & in those days it was all HF (I don’t think that those routes existed, either) . Nowadays,they have extended range VHF available which is effective the closer you are to the land areas. So, I would suggest that you try VHF in the first instance & , if no success, use HF. In any case, doesn’t the domestic ATC give you the appropriate frequencies prior to you leaving their areas ? Shannon/Shanwick had 127.9 as a long range VHF frequency for a long time & I know that there are others listed. If in any doubt, give Shanwick a call on this or 8906,5598, 3016 HF. They will put you right.

[30W]

The Tango routes currently still both require and need HF comms, so HF is the answer.

Changes in the SE corner are in the pipeline, so will change going forward but not not current practice....

Sorry to see you gone Kcockayne! Happy retirement if you’ve escaped!

[kcockayne]

Originally Posted by 30W

The Tango routes currently still both require and need HF comms, so HF is the answer.

Changes in the SE corner are in the pipeline, so will change going forward but not not current practice....

Sorry to see you gone Kcockayne! Happy retirement if you’ve escaped!

Used to listen to Shannon & Prestwick OCA in the 60s (before the combination as "Shanwick"). Continued listening throughout the intervening years up to 2010. Was at Prestwick as a Cadet in 1975/6. ATCO at Aberdeen 76 to 78. Initial escape to Jersey in '78 (there for 31 years-can it really have been that long ?!). Did a year at Coventry in 2007/8. Final escape in '08 now retired &, surprisingly, not missing it ! Thanks for your good wishes.

[Capt Scribble]

NAT, now known as HLA airspace! T16 is VHF on entry then HF going South. Similar North bound, clearance on VHF. Santa Maria has VHF at the boundary but clearance with SM is on HF. I think T16 has become unidirectional with a corresponding route going North, which should help with capacity on the routes.

[Roger That]

Have a read at http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadba...2019-01-17.pdf as it explains what’s changing / changed in terms of communication, and what’s not. HF remains mandatory and there’s a lot more to communication that just the choice of HF or VHF that’s referenced here, specifically the mandate around Datalink in the NAT (again, a quick check of UK AICs will yield all that you need to know).

The ICAO (Paris) website has a number of related documents too at https://www.icao.int/EURNAT/Pages/EU...F142A1E5BC9%7D check the NAT Ops Bulletins there.

@Stanley Eevil, never heard them described as “3 sisters” before (though I only go back around 30 years ��). Further change to Routes will happen in January 2020 when a new RNP2 route will be added close to T9. Keep a close eye on the AICs again for detailed of that in due course.

HTH ... RT

[Stanley Eevil]

Thanks for all the replies!
I just teach ATPL groundschool these days, but I despair about what ab-initio students are quizzed on by EASA.
So, `for the exam`; to be awarded the 1 mark I guess the answer is probably "HF with Shanwick and Santa Maria"?
The problem is, I believe another answer in the multiple choice options was "HF/VHF with Shanwick and Santa Maria".

[Flying Wild]

Originally Posted by Stanley Eevil

Thanks for all the replies!
I just teach ATPL groundschool these days, but I despair about what ab-initio students are quizzed on by EASA.
So, `for the exam`; to be awarded the 1 mark I guess the answer is probably "HF with Shanwick and Santa Maria"?
The problem is, I believe another answer in the multiple choice options was "HF/VHF with Shanwick and Santa Maria".

You need dual HF for T13/16, one HF for T9/213

You are given a VHF freq by Santa Maria to monitor with about 120 miles to run southbound to NAVIX, and when giving a position report Northbound on transfer to Shanwick, are given a VHF Freq to call Shannon 5 mins before OMOKO.

[Capt Scribble]

Dual Nav systems required, I think. I’ve been going on T13/16 with one HF for years.

[737aviator]

Originally Posted by Flying Wild

You need dual HF for T13/16, one HF for T9/213

You are given a VHF freq by Santa Maria to monitor with about 120 miles to run southbound to NAVIX, and when giving a position report Northbound on transfer to Shanwick, are given a VHF Freq to call Shannon 5 mins before OMOKO.

Just one HF is fine for T13/16 but dual long range nav systems required.

To add to the mix the southern element of T13/16 (60 - 100 miles into north of entry/exit points) is radar controlled by Santa Maria for a couple of years now and they'll issue a squawk code, tell you to monitor the VHF and then they'll call you and issue climbs/descents once they've identified you while still in the oceanic airspace. Northbound you only need to monitor HF once approaching limit of radar service when they tell you the frequencies on VHF, so T13/16 are most certainly using VHF, and much more so than the northern elements of all T routes which typically just do initial position report on VHF.

[Una Due Tfc]

T16, it's opposite directional counterpart (T25 IIRC) and T213 are being done away with from Jan 30th anyway, T9 and a new route T290 20nm west of T9 will be the only two routes. If you want to fly the old T16, T213 you still can as random routes but will need FANS to enter HLA airspace (FL290-FL410), T9 and T290 will be exempt from Datalink Mandate.

[Roger That]

Originally Posted by Una Due Tfc

T16, it's opposite directional counterpart (T25 IIRC) and T213 are being done away with from Jan 30th anyway, T9 and a new route T290 20nm west of T9 will be the only two routes. If you want to fly the old T16, T213 you still can as random routes but will need FANS to enter HLA airspace (FL290-FL410), T9 and T290 will be exempt from Datalink Mandate.

Not Correct .... all routes will remain available after 30th January 2020, though it’s correct to say that to use T15/16/213 within HLA you will need to comply with the NAT DLM (ie have FANS). Whether those routes remain, within Shanwick airspace, will depend on their long-term utilisation but, with FANS, you can pretty much go wherever you like and you don’t need to be constrained by the ATS Route network within Oceanic airspace.

RT

[tubby linton]

This thread will be very useful next week.
https://ops.group/blog/how-to-surviv...ryqqZU3wPUgHoA

[Una Due Tfc]

[QUOTE=tubby linton;10460844]

This thread will be very useful next week.
https://ops.group/blog/how-to-surviv...ryqqZU3wPUgHoA

It says there that Oceanic Clearance requests must be made 40 minutes 0rior to Oceanic entry. That's the minimum. The maximum is 90 minutes prior to entry and I'd advise crews to make their request as early as possible (but not greater than 90 minutes before) as it's first come, first served with Shanwick and the earlier you get the request in with them, the more likely you are to get what you want. Many folks have to trundle down the T routes below FL300 due capacity during strikes.

[rab-k]

Originally Posted by Stanley Eevil

Believe it or not, ab-initio ATPL groundschool students that I teach are now being quizzed on the expected ATC comms when flying the `3 Sisters` routes in the SE corner of the Shanwick OCA.
I have flown many NAT flights myself as captain, but never these 3 particular routes - so would appreciate it if anyone can help my students:
On T9 and T213 you are clearly exclusively in the Shanwick OCA, but will comms be with Shanwick on VHF or HF?
T16 will begin with Shanwick but will later go into the Santa Maria OCA; same question really: HF or VHF comms?
Many thanks in advance!

For T9 / T213:

Oceanic Clearance can be requested from Shanwick via VHF, (Shanwick VHF 'Clearance Delivery' for southbound only), HF, ACARS or via 'domestic' ATC, (Shannon or Madrid).

Southbound - Initial call to Shanwick Radio will usually be on VHF for HF allocation, followed by SELCAL check. (Shannon or Shanwick's 'Clearance Delivery' will advise the Shanwick Radio VHF for HF allocation, or the Shanwick Radio HF Primary/Secondary if VHF not being used for HF allocation).

Northbound - HF. (Madrid will advise Primary/Secondary).

T16 (Southbound):

See paras 1 & 2 above - excluding reference to Madrid.
----
Carriage of HF in Shanwick is mandatory. Where equipped, CPDLC and ADS-C can also be used within Shanwick, but carriage of HF is still required.