RTOs & LVPs
Thread Starter
RTOs & LVPs
Hello ATCOs,
I’m one of the grateful drivers of the traffic you control and recently had a sim detail that involved RTOs in LVPs. I was told to declare a Mayday or a Pan Pan when stopping because “they’ll line someone up behind you and clear them for takeoff!”
ICAO Doc 4444 only mentions “callsign, stopping” and three UK CAP 413 also sticks to that call on the RT. So my query is what are the procedures for you guys and gals to ensure we have gotten airborne etc? In VMC it’s a visual check that the aircraft is airborne or at least positively rotating successfully. What’s the routine in IMC?
Many thanks and keep up the good work!
(ps. Useful if you could mention which country’s procedures your’e describing!)
I’m one of the grateful drivers of the traffic you control and recently had a sim detail that involved RTOs in LVPs. I was told to declare a Mayday or a Pan Pan when stopping because “they’ll line someone up behind you and clear them for takeoff!”
ICAO Doc 4444 only mentions “callsign, stopping” and three UK CAP 413 also sticks to that call on the RT. So my query is what are the procedures for you guys and gals to ensure we have gotten airborne etc? In VMC it’s a visual check that the aircraft is airborne or at least positively rotating successfully. What’s the routine in IMC?
Many thanks and keep up the good work!
(ps. Useful if you could mention which country’s procedures your’e describing!)
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Deepest darkest Inbredland....
Posts: 606
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At a big airport in the UK the way we work is that you have to have passed the localiser aerial before the next aircraft is cleared to land or take off. Usually this means that you appear on radar with Mode C indicating 1000ft +.
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: North
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There's any number of reasons why an a/c might RTO. They might include equipment failure, or crew incapacitation, or workload, such that they can't report stopping. The ATCO should be watching the SMR (if available)...or the radar (if available) or failing that, an airborne report, to ensure the runway is clear for the next one. Any other way is simply not fail-safe.
A "stopping" call is good but I'd only expect MAYDAY or PAN if you required emergency assistance.
(I'm based in the UK fwiw, I know the US have different rules on runway protection and clearances...)
A "stopping" call is good but I'd only expect MAYDAY or PAN if you required emergency assistance.
(I'm based in the UK fwiw, I know the US have different rules on runway protection and clearances...)
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: LHR/EGLL
Age: 45
Posts: 4,392
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hello ATCOs,
I’m one of the grateful drivers of the traffic you control and recently had a sim detail that involved RTOs in LVPs. I was told to declare a Mayday or a Pan Pan when stopping because “they’ll line someone up behind you and clear them for takeoff!”
ICAO Doc 4444 only mentions “callsign, stopping” and three UK CAP 413 also sticks to that call on the RT. So my query is what are the procedures for you guys and gals to ensure we have gotten airborne etc? In VMC it’s a visual check that the aircraft is airborne or at least positively rotating successfully. What’s the routine in IMC?
Many thanks and keep up the good work!
(ps. Useful if you could mention which country’s procedures your’e describing!)
I’m one of the grateful drivers of the traffic you control and recently had a sim detail that involved RTOs in LVPs. I was told to declare a Mayday or a Pan Pan when stopping because “they’ll line someone up behind you and clear them for takeoff!”
ICAO Doc 4444 only mentions “callsign, stopping” and three UK CAP 413 also sticks to that call on the RT. So my query is what are the procedures for you guys and gals to ensure we have gotten airborne etc? In VMC it’s a visual check that the aircraft is airborne or at least positively rotating successfully. What’s the routine in IMC?
Many thanks and keep up the good work!
(ps. Useful if you could mention which country’s procedures your’e describing!)
We can either use the Mode-S ground bit which we see on our ground radar (however, due to the decisions made by Airbus for their modern aircraft (A380, A350, A320neo etc) this is now unreliable and we must determine airborne by another method. This is usually either to see you paint on the air radar display, or via pilot report. We are soon to install an upgraded ground radar system that not only uses ground bit, but also aircraft ground speed, Mode-S level information, and trend (i.e. above the runway and climbing for a period of x seconds) to determine airborne state.
Thread Starter
So I’m getting that there is a robust system in place in the UK. Is that aerodrome specifc or mandated by NATS etc?
What’s an “SMR”?
Also, would this preclude line ups also? Or just take off clearances?
Many thanks for shining a light into the darkness for me.
What’s an “SMR”?
Also, would this preclude line ups also? Or just take off clearances?
Many thanks for shining a light into the darkness for me.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: LHR/EGLL
Age: 45
Posts: 4,392
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SMR is Surface Movement Radar, or equivalent of ASDE in the USA. Larger airports have what we call A-SMGCS which is equivalent of ASDE-X.
We can line aircraft up while you are rolling if we have an SMR/A-SMGCS. If not, then ATC would have to wait until you are airborne.
We can line aircraft up while you are rolling if we have an SMR/A-SMGCS. If not, then ATC would have to wait until you are airborne.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: DESDI or BUBIN
Posts: 373
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gonzo, what’s the issue with modern Airbus types? We teach new pilots to use the OANS/ANF to report position on the runway (eg abeam N10E) etc if we require help during an RTO in LVO’s.
Our SOP is simply to call stopped on the runway once parking brake is set as we need time to diagnose the problem before deciding what if any assistance we need.
From my old company days, I thought it was a requirement in the UK to call entering, rolling and airborne?
Our SOP is simply to call stopped on the runway once parking brake is set as we need time to diagnose the problem before deciding what if any assistance we need.
From my old company days, I thought it was a requirement in the UK to call entering, rolling and airborne?
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: LHR/EGLL
Age: 45
Posts: 4,392
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
EdB,
It’s how the ground bit (Mode-S broadcast of ‘airborne’ or ‘on the ground’) now comes from a basic velocity rather than weight on wheels.
Modern Airbuses now report as airborne at about 60kts.
No requirement to report airborne/landed/vacated at LHR unless asked.
It’s how the ground bit (Mode-S broadcast of ‘airborne’ or ‘on the ground’) now comes from a basic velocity rather than weight on wheels.
Modern Airbuses now report as airborne at about 60kts.
No requirement to report airborne/landed/vacated at LHR unless asked.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: DESDI or BUBIN
Posts: 373
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gonzo.
I think that can be adjusted by a simple software update, I’ll talk to an engineering mate and get him to look into it. I know they’ve also changed the OFF/ON time to a min speed of 3kts to stop us accumulating overtime or being on time by not setting the parking brake!
I’ve sent you a PM with another little question too.
I think that can be adjusted by a simple software update, I’ll talk to an engineering mate and get him to look into it. I know they’ve also changed the OFF/ON time to a min speed of 3kts to stop us accumulating overtime or being on time by not setting the parking brake!
I’ve sent you a PM with another little question too.
