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Taxi Instructions After Landing

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Taxi Instructions After Landing

Old 8th Jun 2018, 18:43
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Taxi Instructions After Landing

Good evening,

I am curious how taxi instructions to landing aircraft are handled in the rest of the world, especially at larger International airports. When during the landing roll would you start with the instruction and how much information would you pass on? Some background, I regularly operate medium jets (B737 and A320) into airports where we would receive taxi instructions during the landing roll, often with speeds still around 60kts. The clearances can be quite lengthy and they may even request some of our flight details as well. In my opinion this is too much, too soon. I may very well just be overly cautious and if this is an accept norm, then I stand corrected.

Kind regards,

PJ
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Old 8th Jun 2018, 21:25
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Don’t know about “major” airports tbh....but if I know I want aircraft to vacate at a longer-than-normal exit point I try to let them know whilst on approach (2nm ish).
When on the ground I will delay instruction until I believe they are at a safe manoeuvring speed (not 60kts....a bit less). I’m quite appreciative of a pilot who calls “manoeuvring speed” or similar....but I guess at a “busy busy” airport it wouldn’t be so appreciated? (Generally if they make such a call it’s a fraction before I would transmit in any case - although the odd biz-jet surprises me by an earlier call).
But then my airport isn’t a maze of taxiways...it’d be a struggle to get lost...

Out of interest I generally call “left, right [further instructions]” or “left, left [further instructions] to try to ensure runway is fully vacated....is that generally helpful? (I find it is at my airport - certainly as far as tailfins and stopbars are concerned....)
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Old 8th Jun 2018, 21:27
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I never gave instructions during a landing roll. When it's sensible, instruct the pilot to leave the runway and contact Ground..,
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Old 9th Jun 2018, 02:04
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Easy method is to ignore the instructions until you are ready to respond. ! The controllers will get the message eventually ( one would assume ).
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Old 9th Jun 2018, 04:57
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You would assume. I have been ignoring taxi instructions at one airport which are given at 70 odd knots for the last 6 years and nothing has changed with a few of their controllers. We are normally the only aircraft moving nobody behind us and nobody else on frequency apart from the occasional clearance.

It seems to be the towers that do ground as well as runway where it happens.

It also seems to depended on the size of the aircraft the bigger the aircraft the more they leave it alone. One tiddler type I flew 70-50knts was quite a busy time for both pilots, change over of controls, get the gust locks in which meant the FO had there head down grabbing for a handle and then change the prop/engine configuration for ground. Aircraft still "flying" no PTT on the tiller so the LHS could take it. Basically nobody with a hand anywhere near a PTT. No option but to ignore it.

I did wonder a couple of times if we had a stuck mic, as soon as I said "I have control, locks and props" the taxi clearance would start.

When you bring it up at safety meetings there are various excuses about efficiency and the like. And the point that AMS or ARN manages to not do it with a stream on finals 8-9 aircraft all at min spacing just gets you a blank look. We did manage to "cure" one airport with a few fam flights but to be honest I think the new head of safety was already on the same page as us and he took a video of the landing roll out. Anyway a week after we did the fam flights it stopped. Preferred Exit point where given at 2 NMs and it became very pleasant to operate into.

If its just one airport it might be worth using some CRM skills with the ATC safety officer, trying to tackle it at an individual level is pointless. Make a video of a roll out preferably with the ATC giving taxi instructions at high speed. If you try and confront them that they are doing it wrong you will hit a brick wall. If you tackle it with "can you help us with a safety issue" and let them come up with the solution of leaving the taxi clearance to later on you might have a chance of getting it changed. If its multiple airports in the same country you need to go to the CAA and do the same thing. But don't expect that you will change things otherwise you will be disappointed.
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Old 9th Jun 2018, 11:38
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I always said 'vacate next convenient left/right' then when the aircraft is actually vacating, pass further instructions if necessary.
I NEVER used to say 'vacate next left/right' as some of my colleagues do in case it causes the pilot to brake too hard and maybe burst a tyre.

Last edited by chevvron; 10th Jun 2018 at 17:38.
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Old 10th Jun 2018, 11:12
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Thank you for all the inputs and ideas. I especially like the idea of giving us a preferred exit on final. That is the case at many other airports we used to fly into and it works well. Let's be honest though, I doubt we'll change the way things are done any time soon.

On the A320 it wasn't such a big problem, because you could taxi from both seats. On the B737 it gets a little trickier with the handover of control happening at about the same time as the clearance, much like what tescoapp described without the locking of controls of course.

Does anyone know if ICAO has any recommendations in this regard? I have tried to find any without any luck.
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Old 10th Jun 2018, 13:28
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I can't say I've ever had taxi instructions on the rollout unless they're really simple. Usually it'll be: Nutsack 106 - Exit Alpha 4, contact ground 123.4
Then I can call ground when I'm ready with a crayon.
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Old 10th Jun 2018, 16:16
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Our "best practices" are for tower to give an exit instruction with a first taxiway to head for. Any sequencing with other traffic is coordinated with ground who is sitting next to me, or if not possible, a clearance limit. This is to avoid any stopping on the exit (not 100% successful, but better than without) and to keep you moving while you change to ground.
If I want a specific exit (longer than you might expect) I will pass this on first contact.
If I don't care which exit you use, I will say "any exit".
If there's a need to have you off the runway very quickly, that too will be passed early.
If there is no rush, I will say "take your time".
As for talking during the landing roll: I see some controllers who give instructions when the aircraft is still going at 60-80kt. This is usually when we require you to stop before the close parallel departure runway. I try and wait until you're much slower, maybe 30kt and/or I see the reversers stowed unless I want to get you across that runway and don't want you slowing to a crawl. That instruction will be short though: "c/s cross 24R".
But that's just me. I'm older now.
On the flip side, don't leave the tower frequency (or any airport frequency) unless told to change or passing a sign which allows it. I may be busy but I haven't finished with you until I'm finished with you and I may need something different to what you're planning to do.
Thanks.
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Old 10th Jun 2018, 20:28
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Drain Bamaged
 
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Thanks cossack, for looking out to see what's going on before giving your instructions.

Receiving a bunch of taxi instructions/Questions, tail still flying (DC-3T) And battling gusty crosswind is not fun.
We really have no choice but to ignore it until things get in control.
While it's usually outside North America, I recon we are kind of the odd ball aircraft type wise.


As my old instructor use to say: "Back in the time, they would at least wait for your tailwheel to be on the ground"
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Old 11th Jun 2018, 00:15
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Only half a speed-brake
 
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I love the "reversers stowed" idea. The more people would use it, the better.
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Old 11th Jun 2018, 00:34
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Originally Posted by FlightDetent View Post
I love the "reversers stowed" idea. The more people would use it, the better.
For departures, many controllers give you a frequency change as soon as the wheels are off the ground but I always wait until the gear is up and the flaps are travelling.
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Old 11th Jun 2018, 01:46
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Originally Posted by Prop Job View Post
Thank you for all the inputs and ideas. I especially like the idea of giving us a preferred exit on final. That is the case at many other airports we used to fly into and it works well. Let's be honest though, I doubt we'll change the way things are done any time soon.

On the A320 it wasn't such a big problem, because you could taxi from both seats. On the B737 it gets a little trickier with the handover of control happening at about the same time as the clearance, much like what tescoapp described without the locking of controls of course.

Does anyone know if ICAO has any recommendations in this regard? I have tried to find any without any luck.
ICAO Doc 4444 7.10.3 gives guidance re "Landing and roll-out manoeuvres"
Also ICAO 9432 4.9 for the following text:
"Unless absolutely necessary, controllers should not give taxi instructions to pilots until the landing roll is completed. Unless otherwise advised, pilots should remain on tower frequency until the runway is vacated."
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Old 11th Jun 2018, 05:39
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I also really like the idea of waiting until the reversers are stowed. That's a really neat way of working around the problem. We usually encounter the problem at airports where the initial taxi instructions are given by Tower, not Ground. So I understand their problem as well. It would be very easy to tell us to vacate and contact Ground, but they have more on their plate than that.

Thank you for the references Neptune262. I'll be sure to have a look at those.
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