Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Ground & Other Ops Forums > ATC Issues
Reload this Page >

QHN to STD from uncontrolled to CAS

ATC Issues A place where pilots may enter the 'lions den' that is Air Traffic Control in complete safety and find out the answers to all those obscure topics which you always wanted to know the answer to but were afraid to ask.

QHN to STD from uncontrolled to CAS

Old 13th May 2018, 19:21
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Nice
Posts: 2
QHN to STD from uncontrolled to CAS

Hi.

I am flying IFR in UK, and my instructor told me that during a flight from Cardiff, flying at 5000 feet (so on QNH) when handoff to CAS (to join AirWay) I need to use STD. I do not understand because I am below the TA of Cardiff which is 6000í

any thoughts?

Jules.
Frusciante is offline  
Old 14th May 2018, 23:03
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: River Thames & Surrey
Age: 70
Posts: 7,923
5,000 will be below your cruising level if you are joining CAS, so just do what London ATCC tell you which will probably be 'climb to flight level XXX' or 'cleared to enter at flight level XXX' in which case you obviously switch to STD.
chevvron is offline  
Old 15th May 2018, 11:15
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: NX
Age: 37
Posts: 32
Just to try and understand the situation a little more. You were on an IFR flight from Cardiff. Were you still inside the Cardiff control zone or control areas when you were instructed to change to the area frequency?

Or had you left Cardiff's controlled airspace?
Doody2007 is offline  
Old 15th May 2018, 11:55
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: NX
Age: 37
Posts: 32
I've just googled it. Definitely 6000ft TA within Cardiffs controlled airspace. It would be 3000ft outside CAS, hence my question regarding whether or not the OP was inside the Cardiff control area or not.

It's not immediately clear from the first post.
Doody2007 is offline  
Old 15th May 2018, 12:35
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,143
Originally Posted by chevvron View Post
.....just do what London ATCC tell you which will probably be 'climb to flight level XXX' or 'cleared to enter at flight level XXX' in which case you obviously switch to STD.
Exactly.....
wiggy is offline  
Old 15th May 2018, 16:12
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: River Thames & Surrey
Age: 70
Posts: 7,923
Originally Posted by Doody2007 View Post
I've just googled it. Definitely 6000ft TA within Cardiffs controlled airspace. It would be 3000ft outside CAS, hence my question regarding whether or not the OP was inside the Cardiff control area or not.

It's not immediately clear from the first post.
Cardiff ATC have small sections of en-route airway delegated to them at low level as well as their own CTR and CTA.
chevvron is offline  
Old 15th May 2018, 19:11
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: South of England
Posts: 1,060
I’ve almost been vectored into the side of a hill at Cardiff while in IMC
Is there a published report, TA? Could you provide a link?

2 s
2 sheds is offline  
Old 15th May 2018, 19:14
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: NX
Age: 37
Posts: 32
Originally Posted by chevvron View Post
Cardiff ATC have small sections of en-route airway delegated to them at low level as well as their own CTR and CTA.
Yes, I'm aware of that.
Doody2007 is offline  
Old 15th May 2018, 19:20
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Near VTUU or EGPX
Age: 60
Posts: 262
When you leave airspace that is using an aerodrome QNH to fly on an adjacent airway, the mimimum cruising level on the airway will be published as a Flight Level, therefore you must change the pressure setting to standard and adjust to the relevant FL as per your clearance.

The minimum usable FL on the airway is determined by a table taking into account the Regional QNH, this ensures terrain separation.

Controllers will issue an appropriate level, just be aware when the pressure is low, your planned FL may not be available
The Fat Controller is offline  
Old 15th May 2018, 19:53
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: River Thames & Surrey
Age: 70
Posts: 7,923
Originally Posted by TangoAlphad View Post


Chevron,

First of all I really respect a lot of the stuff you post so I donít want to be quoting this out of context, so I will clarify it is simply as the poster appears to be new to IFR ops under training I just want to make a small nitpick.

Iíve almost been vectored into the side of a hill at Cardiff while in IMC so never blindly trust an instruction. Always query and satisfy yourself yup that makes sense.

Were you inside or outside the boundary of the SMAC?
chevvron is offline  
Old 15th May 2018, 20:26
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 43
Originally Posted by TangoAlphad View Post
If iím Not mistaken is the SMAC the MOD equiv of a Radar vectoring chart? If so then yes. We were which is what prompted me to question the vector as it was taking us below min safe towards terrain.
http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadba...2018-03-29.pdf
Packer27L is online now  
Old 16th May 2018, 06:16
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: N/A
Posts: 25
Thread Title.

QHN?

mods can this be corrected so it can be found at a later date in the search.
Rwy1234 is offline  
Old 16th May 2018, 12:06
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: River Thames & Surrey
Age: 70
Posts: 7,923
Originally Posted by TangoAlphad View Post


If i’m Not mistaken is the SMAC the MOD equiv of a Radar vectoring chart? If so then yes. We were which is what prompted me to question the vector as it was taking us below min safe towards terrain.
The SMAC (Surveillance Minimum Altitude Chart) is what used to be called Radar Vectoring Area (RVA) chart, the name changed about 10 years ago.
The MOD equivalent is derived in an entirely different way or at least was when we last had one at Farnborough which was 16 years ago.
chevvron is offline  
Old 16th May 2018, 15:49
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: River Thames & Surrey
Age: 70
Posts: 7,923
I think some feather plucker at ICAO decided on the name change as there was a liklihood of some places in the distant future using exclusively ADS instead of radar to provide ATC; probably the same feather plucker who decided 'hectopascals' was a great word to use instead of 'millibars'and that if you only had a single 8.33 frequency in your FIR, then all frequencies (apart from those ending in one decimal place) must be referred to with 6 numbers.

Last edited by chevvron; 16th May 2018 at 16:35.
chevvron is offline  
Old 18th May 2018, 18:16
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: South of England
Posts: 1,060
I’ve almost been vectored into the side of a hill at Cardiff while in IMC
It was in a light twin under training and was dealt with via a stern phone call so sadly no report. Looking back maybe not the best way of doing so but hey ho..
TangoAlphad - Are you seriously saying that you were placed, in effect, 1,000 feet below the appropriate safety altitude and no MOR was filed?

2 s
2 sheds is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.