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QHN to STD from uncontrolled to CAS

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Old 13th May 2018, 19:21
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QHN to STD from uncontrolled to CAS

Hi.

I am flying IFR in UK, and my instructor told me that during a flight from Cardiff, flying at 5000 feet (so on QNH) when handoff to CAS (to join AirWay) I need to use STD. I do not understand because I am below the TA of Cardiff which is 6000í

any thoughts?

Jules.
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Old 14th May 2018, 23:03
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5,000 will be below your cruising level if you are joining CAS, so just do what London ATCC tell you which will probably be 'climb to flight level XXX' or 'cleared to enter at flight level XXX' in which case you obviously switch to STD.
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Old 15th May 2018, 11:15
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Just to try and understand the situation a little more. You were on an IFR flight from Cardiff. Were you still inside the Cardiff control zone or control areas when you were instructed to change to the area frequency?

Or had you left Cardiff's controlled airspace?
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Old 15th May 2018, 11:48
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I don't have access to any plates so not sure down in that part but the TA isn't set the same across the UK. It is down at 3000' in a lot of places.
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Old 15th May 2018, 11:55
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I've just googled it. Definitely 6000ft TA within Cardiffs controlled airspace. It would be 3000ft outside CAS, hence my question regarding whether or not the OP was inside the Cardiff control area or not.

It's not immediately clear from the first post.
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Old 15th May 2018, 12:35
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Originally Posted by chevvron View Post
.....just do what London ATCC tell you which will probably be 'climb to flight level XXX' or 'cleared to enter at flight level XXX' in which case you obviously switch to STD.
Exactly.....
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Old 15th May 2018, 16:12
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Originally Posted by Doody2007 View Post
I've just googled it. Definitely 6000ft TA within Cardiffs controlled airspace. It would be 3000ft outside CAS, hence my question regarding whether or not the OP was inside the Cardiff control area or not.

It's not immediately clear from the first post.
Cardiff ATC have small sections of en-route airway delegated to them at low level as well as their own CTR and CTA.
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Old 15th May 2018, 18:47
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. so just do what London ATCC tell you
Chevron,

First of all I really respect a lot of the stuff you post so I donít want to be quoting this out of context, so I will clarify it is simply as the poster appears to be new to IFR ops under training I just want to make a small nitpick.

Iíve almost been vectored into the side of a hill at Cardiff while in IMC so never blindly trust an instruction. Always query and satisfy yourself yup that makes sense.

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Old 15th May 2018, 19:11
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I’ve almost been vectored into the side of a hill at Cardiff while in IMC
Is there a published report, TA? Could you provide a link?

2 s
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Old 15th May 2018, 19:12
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Originally Posted by 2 sheds View Post
Is there a published report, TA? Could you provide a link?

2 s

It was in a light twin under training and was dealt with via a stern phone call so sadly no report. Looking back maybe not the best way of doing so but hey ho..
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Old 15th May 2018, 19:14
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Originally Posted by chevvron View Post
Cardiff ATC have small sections of en-route airway delegated to them at low level as well as their own CTR and CTA.
Yes, I'm aware of that.
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Old 15th May 2018, 19:20
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When you leave airspace that is using an aerodrome QNH to fly on an adjacent airway, the mimimum cruising level on the airway will be published as a Flight Level, therefore you must change the pressure setting to standard and adjust to the relevant FL as per your clearance.

The minimum usable FL on the airway is determined by a table taking into account the Regional QNH, this ensures terrain separation.

Controllers will issue an appropriate level, just be aware when the pressure is low, your planned FL may not be available
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Old 15th May 2018, 19:53
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Originally Posted by TangoAlphad View Post


Chevron,

First of all I really respect a lot of the stuff you post so I donít want to be quoting this out of context, so I will clarify it is simply as the poster appears to be new to IFR ops under training I just want to make a small nitpick.

Iíve almost been vectored into the side of a hill at Cardiff while in IMC so never blindly trust an instruction. Always query and satisfy yourself yup that makes sense.

Were you inside or outside the boundary of the SMAC?
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Old 15th May 2018, 20:21
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Originally Posted by chevvron View Post
Were you inside or outside the boundary of the SMAC?
If iím Not mistaken is the SMAC the MOD equiv of a Radar vectoring chart? If so then yes. We were which is what prompted me to question the vector as it was taking us below min safe towards terrain.
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Old 15th May 2018, 20:26
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Originally Posted by TangoAlphad View Post
If iím Not mistaken is the SMAC the MOD equiv of a Radar vectoring chart? If so then yes. We were which is what prompted me to question the vector as it was taking us below min safe towards terrain.
http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadba...2018-03-29.pdf
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Old 15th May 2018, 20:51
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Ahh.. doh! Current and previous companies called the charts otherwise not using the AIP. . Although looking at that AIP chart maybe we were further out.. it was a good number of years ago but I donít see anything on that chart as alarming as what memory recalls. We may well of been outside the charted area actually to the north.
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Old 16th May 2018, 06:16
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Thread Title.

QHN?

mods can this be corrected so it can be found at a later date in the search.
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Old 16th May 2018, 12:06
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Originally Posted by TangoAlphad View Post


If i’m Not mistaken is the SMAC the MOD equiv of a Radar vectoring chart? If so then yes. We were which is what prompted me to question the vector as it was taking us below min safe towards terrain.
The SMAC (Surveillance Minimum Altitude Chart) is what used to be called Radar Vectoring Area (RVA) chart, the name changed about 10 years ago.
The MOD equivalent is derived in an entirely different way or at least was when we last had one at Farnborough which was 16 years ago.
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Old 16th May 2018, 12:25
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Originally Posted by chevvron View Post
The SMAC (Surveillance Minimum Altitude Chart) is what used to be called Radar Vectoring Area (RVA) chart, the name changed about 10 years ago.
The MOD equivalent is derived in an entirely different way or at least was when we last had one at Farnborough which was 16 years ago.
learn a new one every day eh. I've always used jeps and known them as the RMA, Radar Minimum Altitude plates so pardon my ignorance on that one.
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Old 16th May 2018, 15:49
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I think some feather plucker at ICAO decided on the name change as there was a liklihood of some places in the distant future using exclusively ADS instead of radar to provide ATC; probably the same feather plucker who decided 'hectopascals' was a great word to use instead of 'millibars'and that if you only had a single 8.33 frequency in your FIR, then all frequencies (apart from those ending in one decimal place) must be referred to with 6 numbers.

Last edited by chevvron; 16th May 2018 at 16:35.
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